Good point! I’ve attempted to expand on this a bit, and list the advantages that each vaccine currently seems to have over the other:
For RaDVaC:
Extensive Documentation, Whitepaper and reasoning about its development available
Manufacturing does not require a sterile environment
Simpler administration
Has a small community, might be easier to exchange questions and results
Regularly updated (possibly double-edged—seems very useful to keep up with any variant capable of immune escape, but may (?) make it more difficult to estimate efficacy across vaccine generations)
Designed to prevent immune escape, may still work when commercial vaccines become less effective (uses 9 − 13 peptides instead of just targeting the spike protein like other vaccines)
Cheaper ingredients, because the peptides required are shorter
For Dr. Stöcker’s Vaccine:
Test results released so far show very good efficacy and safety (for n=64)
Known-good dosing regimen available
Efficacy can be verified using commercial blood antibody tests
Requires only one peptide (which might be orderable as-is, without custom synthesis) and two passive ingredients
One way to achieve sterility might be to use a self-made glovebox (example tutorial). For extra safety, you could also add an intake fan with a HEPA filter to get a positive-pressure sterile environment, which would still be sterile in case of a small enough leak. Or build a positive-pressure hood—more upfront work, but working in it seems easier.
Personally, the good results and self-verification capability (using antibody tests) would make me prefer Dr. Stöcker’s vaccine despite the extra hassle, as long as we knew what kind of Arg319-Phe541 peptide we need for it.
Edit 1: Added / edited the last two points in the RaDVaC list, thanks to feedback by ChristianKl.
Has a small community, might be easier to exchange questions and results
Given that this community exists it’s likely that they somehow privately share results. It would be really interesting to know more about what’s going on in that community.
as long as we knew what kind of Arg319-Phe541 peptide we need for it.
I understand Arg319-Phe541 to mean the subsection of the spike protein that begins with arginine at position 319 and ends with phenylalanin at position 541. At the moment I don’t immediately find the sequence with googling but it’s worth checking whether 319 is indeed arginine and 541 phenylalanin to check whether this interpretation makes sense.
The problem is that this is 222 amino acids longs which is longer then what the peptide sequencing company sell you so you can’t get them the same way you get the peptide you need for the RaDVaC vaccine.
I think RaDVaC has another advantage. It’s designed to be difficult for the virus to mutate to get immune to it. Having to change 9 different targets is harder for the virus then just having to change the spike protein and given that every approved vaccine targets the spike protein there’s a lot of selective pressure on the virus mutating to get immune to it. The targets are also careful chosen to be conserved and thus less likely to mutate.
Thank you, this is helpful—I’ve edited the parent post to include some of your feedback.
About the community: the only other place I’ve found so far is /r/radvac—though pretty dead, it may be useful to find people connected to the community. This page also mentions a Boston RaDVaC group.
I understand Arg319-Phe541 to mean the subsection of the spike protein that begins with arginine at position 319 and ends with phenylalanin at position 541.
This seems right—the RaDVaC white paper has a nicely formatted copy of the S protein on page 40, and it begins with R / arginine at 319 and ends with F / phenylalanine at 541.
I found 230-01102-1000-RB by RayBiotech as a cheaper option. If you buy 100 µg of it at 308 € (includes 19 % VAT) you end up at 52 € per dose / 154 € per person. Or you buy 1000 µg at 1129 €, which is enough for 22 people, it’s 18 € per dose / 52 € per person. Again, I have no clue about what you have to look out for when buying this peptide (e.g. format, purity, formulation, …?) for an injected vaccine, any info on this would be highly appreciated!
Apart from that, the data released on the Stöcker vaccine shows that shots 1, 2 and 3 were on average 10 and 32 days apart. Storing the peptides for this amount of time does not seem to be trivial, see e.g. the storage requirements from RayBiotech for their Arg319-Phe541:
Upon arrival, the protein may be stored for 2 weeks at 4 °C. For long term storage, it is recommended to store at −20 °C or −80 °C in appropriate aliquots. Avoid repeated freeze-thaw cycles.
Maintaining 4 °C sounds doable with a good fridge and a data logging thermometer. −20 °C is more tricky—maybe use a home freezer (*** is specced at ≤ −18 °C) and add a data logger. If it then turns out that it can’t reach −20 °C, it might be possible to fix that by modding its internal thermostat somehow. Or have access to a lab freezer, or shell out the big bucks (four figures) to buy one.
I am curious about the storage requirements for RaDVaC and couldn’t find out anything specific on the webpage or in the whitepaper. Though the latter does mention some steps that were taken to improve peptide stability, it would be nice to have some info on this.
Maintaining 4 °C sounds doable with a good fridge and a data logging thermometer. −20 °C is more tricky—maybe use a home freezer (*** is specced at ≤ −18 °C) and add a data logger. If it then turns out that it can’t reach −20 °C, it might be possible to fix that by modding its internal thermostat somehow. Or have access to a lab freezer, or shell out the big bucks (four figures) to buy one.
As someone who has worked in the labs a long time, I wouldn’t worry about having to hit exactly −20 °C; that basically just means “freezer temperature”. Lab freezers don’t work any differently than home freezers as far as I can tell, although they do have certain safety features that a home freezer wouldn’t. But the temperature can still vary a few degrees up or down, and it shouldn’t affect your storage much. The (very) general rule of thumb is a difference of +/- 10 °C makes chemical reactions (such as peptide degradation) go 2x faster/slower. So even having to store in a fridge temporarily would only be ~4x faster than a freezer, still maybe good enough for one’s purposes.
The big difference comes for −20 °C vs −80 °C, since there you have a 2^6 or 64-fold rate difference. So something that can last for a month at −80 °C might degrade in half a day in a freezer. Hence the complex supply chains needed for such vaccines.
Good point! I’ve attempted to expand on this a bit, and list the advantages that each vaccine currently seems to have over the other:
For RaDVaC:
Extensive Documentation, Whitepaper and reasoning about its development available
Manufacturing does not require a sterile environment
Simpler administration
Has a small community, might be easier to exchange questions and results
Regularly updated (possibly double-edged—seems very useful to keep up with any variant capable of immune escape, but may (?) make it more difficult to estimate efficacy across vaccine generations)
Designed to prevent immune escape, may still work when commercial vaccines become less effective (uses 9 − 13 peptides instead of just targeting the spike protein like other vaccines)
Cheaper ingredients, because the peptides required are shorter
For Dr. Stöcker’s Vaccine:
Test results released so far show very good efficacy and safety (for n=64)
Known-good dosing regimen available
Efficacy can be verified using commercial blood antibody tests
Requires only one peptide (which might be orderable as-is, without custom synthesis) and two passive ingredients
One way to achieve sterility might be to use a self-made glovebox (example tutorial). For extra safety, you could also add an intake fan with a HEPA filter to get a positive-pressure sterile environment, which would still be sterile in case of a small enough leak. Or build a positive-pressure hood—more upfront work, but working in it seems easier.
Personally, the good results and self-verification capability (using antibody tests) would make me prefer Dr. Stöcker’s vaccine despite the extra hassle, as long as we knew what kind of Arg319-Phe541 peptide we need for it.
Edit 1: Added / edited the last two points in the RaDVaC list, thanks to feedback by ChristianKl.
Given that this community exists it’s likely that they somehow privately share results. It would be really interesting to know more about what’s going on in that community.
I understand Arg319-Phe541 to mean the subsection of the spike protein that begins with arginine at position 319 and ends with phenylalanin at position 541. At the moment I don’t immediately find the sequence with googling but it’s worth checking whether 319 is indeed arginine and 541 phenylalanin to check whether this interpretation makes sense.
The problem is that this is 222 amino acids longs which is longer then what the peptide sequencing company sell you so you can’t get them the same way you get the peptide you need for the RaDVaC vaccine.
Active-Bioscience seems to sell 100 µg of SARS-CoV-2 Spike Glycoprotein-S1 RBD (319-541, biotinylated) recombinant Protein for 1.150 € which gives you enough doses for two people.
I think RaDVaC has another advantage. It’s designed to be difficult for the virus to mutate to get immune to it. Having to change 9 different targets is harder for the virus then just having to change the spike protein and given that every approved vaccine targets the spike protein there’s a lot of selective pressure on the virus mutating to get immune to it. The targets are also careful chosen to be conserved and thus less likely to mutate.
Thank you, this is helpful—I’ve edited the parent post to include some of your feedback.
About the community: the only other place I’ve found so far is /r/radvac—though pretty dead, it may be useful to find people connected to the community. This page also mentions a Boston RaDVaC group.
This seems right—the RaDVaC white paper has a nicely formatted copy of the S protein on page 40, and it begins with R / arginine at 319 and ends with F / phenylalanine at 541.
I found 230-01102-1000-RB by RayBiotech as a cheaper option. If you buy 100 µg of it at 308 € (includes 19 % VAT) you end up at 52 € per dose / 154 € per person. Or you buy 1000 µg at 1129 €, which is enough for 22 people, it’s 18 € per dose / 52 € per person. Again, I have no clue about what you have to look out for when buying this peptide (e.g. format, purity, formulation, …?) for an injected vaccine, any info on this would be highly appreciated!
Apart from that, the data released on the Stöcker vaccine shows that shots 1, 2 and 3 were on average 10 and 32 days apart. Storing the peptides for this amount of time does not seem to be trivial, see e.g. the storage requirements from RayBiotech for their Arg319-Phe541:
Maintaining 4 °C sounds doable with a good fridge and a data logging thermometer. −20 °C is more tricky—maybe use a home freezer (*** is specced at ≤ −18 °C) and add a data logger. If it then turns out that it can’t reach −20 °C, it might be possible to fix that by modding its internal thermostat somehow. Or have access to a lab freezer, or shell out the big bucks (four figures) to buy one.
I am curious about the storage requirements for RaDVaC and couldn’t find out anything specific on the webpage or in the whitepaper. Though the latter does mention some steps that were taken to improve peptide stability, it would be nice to have some info on this.
As someone who has worked in the labs a long time, I wouldn’t worry about having to hit exactly −20 °C; that basically just means “freezer temperature”. Lab freezers don’t work any differently than home freezers as far as I can tell, although they do have certain safety features that a home freezer wouldn’t. But the temperature can still vary a few degrees up or down, and it shouldn’t affect your storage much. The (very) general rule of thumb is a difference of +/- 10 °C makes chemical reactions (such as peptide degradation) go 2x faster/slower. So even having to store in a fridge temporarily would only be ~4x faster than a freezer, still maybe good enough for one’s purposes.
The big difference comes for −20 °C vs −80 °C, since there you have a 2^6 or 64-fold rate difference. So something that can last for a month at −80 °C might degrade in half a day in a freezer. Hence the complex supply chains needed for such vaccines.
Lab freezers have no defrost cycle. Home freezers often do, which prevents ice buildup but also means they don’t maintain temperature.
So that’s why those damn things were always so full of ice! Thankyou, I did not know this before.
This thread was excellent, strong upvotes for both of you.