Sometimes history moves slowly. During his life, Bach was best known as an organist; sure, later composers studied and loved his work, but it wasn’t until the mid 19th century that he started to get the reputation that he has now.
I think komponisto is implying that there was plenty of popular music back then as well, but most of those composers/performers didn’t enter the canon.
However, I think there’s another factor at play here—“art music” experienced the same academization and post-modernization that we saw in the visual arts. Serialism, musicque concrete, aleatory composition—all these things pushed the boundaries of what “music” actually meant, going against popular sensibilities in ways that (and I could be wrong here) the “art music” of previous centuries did not. The idea of linear stylistic progression totally breaks down once you get to the mid 20th century, so if you want to construct a convenient narrative, you’ve got to grab onto popular music or jazz.
I think the Second Viennese School tends to get singled out, because they are the major overlap between “music that some devotees of ‘art music’ really enjoy” and “music that some devotees of ‘art music’ think is too bizarre.” If you go earlier, Mahler has too many fans, and later, people like Xenakis don’t have enough.
Sometimes history moves slowly. During his life, Bach was best known as an organist; sure, later composers studied and loved his work, but it wasn’t until the mid 19th century that he started to get the reputation that he has now.
I thought someone would mention that. I think it’s different. Schoenberg et al. were famous while they were alive. Their works were performed publicly, and adored by the cogniscenti, for decades. Bach grew into public favor. Schoenberg fell out of public favor. He had every chance the music establishment could give him, and still fell out of favor.
(BTW, Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven all made special studies of Bach’s music in the 18th century; so I’m skeptical of the “Bach had no reputation as a composer” argument.)
Also note that the time between when Bach wrote the St. Matthew Passion in 1727, and when Mendelssohn “revived” it in 1829, was only 102 years. We’ve already had 100 years of Schoenberg.
Also note that Bach is always brought up in this context because he is such a notable exception in that way
However, I think there’s another factor at play here—“art music” experienced the same academization and post-modernization that we saw in the visual arts. Serialism, musicque concrete, aleatory composition—all these things pushed the boundaries of what “music” actually meant, going against popular sensibilities in ways that (and I could be wrong here) the “art music” of previous centuries did not.
I don’t think Schoenberg ever had public favor. He may have had the favor of the “elite” music audience, but, as I understand it, the public at large was listening to early jazz. Maybe this is my American bias; I’m not sure.
I see your point about Bach; I always had the impression that composers knew about him, but the masses didn’t. I could be wrong. What were people in their homes actually playing in the 18th and 19th centuries? Whose music were they going to see? The question of whether or not “popular music” has replaced the music of the canonical composers from a cultural standpoint hinges on these answers that I don’t have.
Schoenberg et al. were famous while they were alive. Their works were performed publicly, and adored by the cogniscenti, for decades.
And this is still the case! There’s been no “falling out of favor”. On the one hand, you have elite musicians, who mostly admire Schoenberg; on the other hand, you have musical laypeople, who mostly don’t. Same as it’s always been!
You’ve already demonstrated before that you don’t know what’s going on in music today. Why do you keep making authoritative-sounding pronouncements on the matter?
(BTW, Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven all made special studies of Bach’s music in the 18th century; so I’m skeptical of the “Bach had no reputation as a composer” argument.)
He had a tremendous reputation as a composer—among those in a position to know about his work. That wasn’t a very large group.
No; I was contrasting Schoenberg with Bach. Given the chance, most people liked Bach. Given the chance, most people didn’t like Schoenberg.
Schoenberg may be good for people with decades of specialized training. Having fashion dictated by those people with specialized training resulted in a peacock’s-tail runaway selection, and the effective extinction of the greatest family of music in history. IMHO.
You can’t have it both ways. Your faction can’t be both the underdog and the triumphant party at the same time. If Schoenberg et al fell out of favor and ended up in the dustbin of musical history, then you can’t complain about his influence. If, on the other hand, you think he is responsible for the “extinction of the greatest family of music in history”, then you must concede that he is still taken seriously by those in the know.
However, I think there’s another factor at play here—“art music” experienced the same academization and post-modernization that we saw in the visual arts. Serialism, musicque concrete, aleatory composition—all these things pushed the boundaries of what “music” actually meant, going against popular sensibilities in ways that (and I could be wrong here) the “art music” of previous centuries did not
It’s true that in the 20th century, art music became advanced beyond the point of being immediately accessible to most non-specialists. No one would deny this. But so what? Something similar happened in science as well: in previous centuries, any educated person could hope to understand the greatest work of the time, and even possibly contribute to it. Now, that’s no longer the case.
This sort of progression is arguably inevitable. If people spend all their time refining some intellectual discipline, eventually, the results are going to require something like specialist training to properly apprehend. (That’s not to say that casual listeners couldn’t get a lot more out of advanced art music than they actually do, with suitable popularization efforts.)
The idea of linear stylistic progression totally breaks down once you get to the mid 20th century,
I dispute this entirely, and attribute this impression to our historical proximity. If you lived in the 18th century and were a connoisseur of music, Mozart and Haydn would have sounded a lot more different from each other than they do to us today—because we can contrast with what came after. In a century or two, the progression of twentieth-century music won’t seem very different in kind from what happened in earlier centuries.
Again, that’s not to say that something different didn’t happen in the twentieth century—but every period has its unique developments.
Sometimes history moves slowly. During his life, Bach was best known as an organist; sure, later composers studied and loved his work, but it wasn’t until the mid 19th century that he started to get the reputation that he has now.
I think komponisto is implying that there was plenty of popular music back then as well, but most of those composers/performers didn’t enter the canon.
However, I think there’s another factor at play here—“art music” experienced the same academization and post-modernization that we saw in the visual arts. Serialism, musicque concrete, aleatory composition—all these things pushed the boundaries of what “music” actually meant, going against popular sensibilities in ways that (and I could be wrong here) the “art music” of previous centuries did not. The idea of linear stylistic progression totally breaks down once you get to the mid 20th century, so if you want to construct a convenient narrative, you’ve got to grab onto popular music or jazz.
I think the Second Viennese School tends to get singled out, because they are the major overlap between “music that some devotees of ‘art music’ really enjoy” and “music that some devotees of ‘art music’ think is too bizarre.” If you go earlier, Mahler has too many fans, and later, people like Xenakis don’t have enough.
I thought someone would mention that. I think it’s different. Schoenberg et al. were famous while they were alive. Their works were performed publicly, and adored by the cogniscenti, for decades. Bach grew into public favor. Schoenberg fell out of public favor. He had every chance the music establishment could give him, and still fell out of favor.
(BTW, Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven all made special studies of Bach’s music in the 18th century; so I’m skeptical of the “Bach had no reputation as a composer” argument.)
Also note that the time between when Bach wrote the St. Matthew Passion in 1727, and when Mendelssohn “revived” it in 1829, was only 102 years. We’ve already had 100 years of Schoenberg.
Also note that Bach is always brought up in this context because he is such a notable exception in that way
I agree completely.
I don’t think Schoenberg ever had public favor. He may have had the favor of the “elite” music audience, but, as I understand it, the public at large was listening to early jazz. Maybe this is my American bias; I’m not sure.
I see your point about Bach; I always had the impression that composers knew about him, but the masses didn’t. I could be wrong. What were people in their homes actually playing in the 18th and 19th centuries? Whose music were they going to see? The question of whether or not “popular music” has replaced the music of the canonical composers from a cultural standpoint hinges on these answers that I don’t have.
And this is still the case! There’s been no “falling out of favor”. On the one hand, you have elite musicians, who mostly admire Schoenberg; on the other hand, you have musical laypeople, who mostly don’t. Same as it’s always been!
You’ve already demonstrated before that you don’t know what’s going on in music today. Why do you keep making authoritative-sounding pronouncements on the matter?
He had a tremendous reputation as a composer—among those in a position to know about his work. That wasn’t a very large group.
No; I was contrasting Schoenberg with Bach. Given the chance, most people liked Bach. Given the chance, most people didn’t like Schoenberg.
Schoenberg may be good for people with decades of specialized training. Having fashion dictated by those people with specialized training resulted in a peacock’s-tail runaway selection, and the effective extinction of the greatest family of music in history. IMHO.
You can’t have it both ways. Your faction can’t be both the underdog and the triumphant party at the same time. If Schoenberg et al fell out of favor and ended up in the dustbin of musical history, then you can’t complain about his influence. If, on the other hand, you think he is responsible for the “extinction of the greatest family of music in history”, then you must concede that he is still taken seriously by those in the know.
Can’t you?
It’s true that in the 20th century, art music became advanced beyond the point of being immediately accessible to most non-specialists. No one would deny this. But so what? Something similar happened in science as well: in previous centuries, any educated person could hope to understand the greatest work of the time, and even possibly contribute to it. Now, that’s no longer the case.
This sort of progression is arguably inevitable. If people spend all their time refining some intellectual discipline, eventually, the results are going to require something like specialist training to properly apprehend. (That’s not to say that casual listeners couldn’t get a lot more out of advanced art music than they actually do, with suitable popularization efforts.)
I dispute this entirely, and attribute this impression to our historical proximity. If you lived in the 18th century and were a connoisseur of music, Mozart and Haydn would have sounded a lot more different from each other than they do to us today—because we can contrast with what came after. In a century or two, the progression of twentieth-century music won’t seem very different in kind from what happened in earlier centuries.
Again, that’s not to say that something different didn’t happen in the twentieth century—but every period has its unique developments.