I’m not interested in a relationship in which I can’t interact honestly with the woman, because I wouldn’t find it to be fulfilling. I’d rather be single than have to tiptoe around my romantic partner’s irrational beliefs. Changing that implies either ceasing to care about rationality, or dramatically lowering my expectations for a relationship. Neither of those sounds particularly appealing.
Are you suggesting that a non-religious person would have no irrational beliefs to tiptoe around? This seems unlikely.
Are you suggesting that if you didn’t tiptoe around religious beliefs that would be a problem? Because it seems that religious people are extra-resilient in their beliefs, so that might be less of an issue than you fear.
Are you suggesting that it isn’t possible to have a relationship where one person is religious and another atheist without them having to fight about it or lie about it? That your relationships must have zero tolerance and absolute agreement on all points?
Are you suggesting that a non-religious person would have no irrational beliefs to tiptoe around? This seems unlikely.
No, but a religious person is definitely going to have such beliefs.
Are you suggesting that if you didn’t tiptoe around religious beliefs that would be a problem? Because it seems that religious people are extra-resilient in their beliefs, so that might be less of an issue than you fear.
Yes, I am. It’s not a matter of resilience in beliefs; telling my significant other that I can’t take their opinion on [evolution/gay marriage/abortion/insert religiously-tinted issue of your choice] at all seriously doesn’t sound like a recipe for a harmonious relationship.
Are you suggesting that it isn’t possible to have a relationship where one person is religious and another atheist without them having to fight about it or lie about it?
It’s not possible for me, because I believe atheism is the rational position and religious belief is objectively unjustified. I don’t think the idea that relationships between religious and nonreligious people are unlikely to succeed is an uncommon one; I’ve had religious friends express agreement with it.
That your relationships must have zero tolerance and absolute agreement on all points?
This is a straw man argument, as I did not make such a statement.
Many people are religious without really examining the consequences of their beliefs. Also many people have religious beliefs that do not cause them to think irrationally about evolution, gay marriage, or abortion. I would expect many of these people to move toward atheism during a long-term relationship with a LessWronger.
Many people are religious without really examining the consequences of their beliefs.
Yes, I’ve made that argument for abortion. However, that generally doesn’t stop such people from being extremely convinced of their beliefs. I haven’t had any success changing someone’s mind about abortion with the aforementioned argument, despite how obvious it becomes that the person is merely acting out instructions without thinking about them.
Also many people have religious beliefs that do not cause them to think irrationally about evolution, gay marriage, or abortion.
Those were meant as examples, not a definitive list of topics. There are very few people whose religious beliefs don’t cause them to think irrationally about some important issue.
I would expect many of these people to move toward atheism during a long-term relationship with a LessWronger.
I understand that, but I would be setting myself up for disappointment to expect that from any specific romantic partner who fell into that category.
Those were meant as examples, not a definitive list of topics. There are very few people whose religious beliefs don’t cause them to think irrationally about some important issue.
I realized this, but there seems to be a cluster in personspace of theists who are no less rational about the concepts on your list than the average atheist. If there are any topics that even these theists are irrational about, can you give examples?
I understand that, but I would be setting myself up for disappointment to expect that from any specific romantic partner who fell into that category.
I realized this, but there seems to be a cluster in personspace of theists who are no less rational about the concepts on your list than the average atheist. If there are any topics that even these theists are irrational about, can you give examples?
To be honest, I really haven’t met enough theists in that cluster to be very confident about any examples. I can see the matter of church attendance (in general, in terms of the course of the relationship if it moves toward marriage, and later in terms of raising children) being an issue. It’s not necessarily something that will come up right away, but I would see the specter of it hovering overhead. There’s also the irrationality of religious beliefs themselves, e.g. the idea that God is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent, or the idea that Jesus performed miracles.
There are, in fact, plenty of couples who have diametrically opposed ideas on politics or religion. You just need to either a) agree to not discuss it or b) be willing to honestly debate and challenge each other without getting upset.
I agree that you should interact honestly and not tiptoe around what you think, but that doesn’t mean you have to agree on everything, even religion.
For what it’s worth, as irrational as religion is, I’m willing to bet that any atheist here has equally irrational ideas that they stick with.
Any atheist here, and equally irrational? That’s a bet I’d take.
It’s one thing to disagree with a person on a number of points, and another thing to be unable to respect their epistemology. On difficult matters, where it’s hard to locate an error, you can consider another person’s reasoning sound to respectable standards without agreeing with their conclusions (we’re only human after all,) and on matters of opinion, disagreement does not necessarily imply conflict of epistemology. Religion falls into neither category.
I used to be open to relationships with religious individuals, but eventually I came to the realization that I had been putting more effort into convincing myself that I was tolerant than being realistic about my preferences. I couldn’t be happy with such a relationship beyond the extremely short term.
Desrtopa makes the main points below; I’d like to add:
For what it’s worth, as irrational as religion is, I’m willing to bet that any atheist here has equally irrational ideas that they stick with.
Even accepting that premise, the difference is that I’m willing to update my map. If a religious person had the same willingness, ey already would no longer be religious.
Yes, most likely. I don’t see much of a difference between agnosticism and atheism in practice. If a person doesn’t know if God exists (agnostic), ey probably won’t hold an active belief in God (atheist). There are exceptions to that, of course, but in a minority of cases.
From reading your whole comment, it seems this:
would be the easiest bit to change to remove the problem from your life.
I’m not interested in a relationship in which I can’t interact honestly with the woman, because I wouldn’t find it to be fulfilling. I’d rather be single than have to tiptoe around my romantic partner’s irrational beliefs. Changing that implies either ceasing to care about rationality, or dramatically lowering my expectations for a relationship. Neither of those sounds particularly appealing.
Are you suggesting that a non-religious person would have no irrational beliefs to tiptoe around? This seems unlikely.
Are you suggesting that if you didn’t tiptoe around religious beliefs that would be a problem? Because it seems that religious people are extra-resilient in their beliefs, so that might be less of an issue than you fear.
Are you suggesting that it isn’t possible to have a relationship where one person is religious and another atheist without them having to fight about it or lie about it? That your relationships must have zero tolerance and absolute agreement on all points?
No, but a religious person is definitely going to have such beliefs.
Yes, I am. It’s not a matter of resilience in beliefs; telling my significant other that I can’t take their opinion on [evolution/gay marriage/abortion/insert religiously-tinted issue of your choice] at all seriously doesn’t sound like a recipe for a harmonious relationship.
It’s not possible for me, because I believe atheism is the rational position and religious belief is objectively unjustified. I don’t think the idea that relationships between religious and nonreligious people are unlikely to succeed is an uncommon one; I’ve had religious friends express agreement with it.
This is a straw man argument, as I did not make such a statement.
Many people are religious without really examining the consequences of their beliefs. Also many people have religious beliefs that do not cause them to think irrationally about evolution, gay marriage, or abortion. I would expect many of these people to move toward atheism during a long-term relationship with a LessWronger.
Yes, I’ve made that argument for abortion. However, that generally doesn’t stop such people from being extremely convinced of their beliefs. I haven’t had any success changing someone’s mind about abortion with the aforementioned argument, despite how obvious it becomes that the person is merely acting out instructions without thinking about them.
Those were meant as examples, not a definitive list of topics. There are very few people whose religious beliefs don’t cause them to think irrationally about some important issue.
I understand that, but I would be setting myself up for disappointment to expect that from any specific romantic partner who fell into that category.
I realized this, but there seems to be a cluster in personspace of theists who are no less rational about the concepts on your list than the average atheist. If there are any topics that even these theists are irrational about, can you give examples?
Good point.
To be honest, I really haven’t met enough theists in that cluster to be very confident about any examples. I can see the matter of church attendance (in general, in terms of the course of the relationship if it moves toward marriage, and later in terms of raising children) being an issue. It’s not necessarily something that will come up right away, but I would see the specter of it hovering overhead. There’s also the irrationality of religious beliefs themselves, e.g. the idea that God is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent, or the idea that Jesus performed miracles.
There are, in fact, plenty of couples who have diametrically opposed ideas on politics or religion. You just need to either a) agree to not discuss it or b) be willing to honestly debate and challenge each other without getting upset.
I agree that you should interact honestly and not tiptoe around what you think, but that doesn’t mean you have to agree on everything, even religion.
For what it’s worth, as irrational as religion is, I’m willing to bet that any atheist here has equally irrational ideas that they stick with.
Any atheist here, and equally irrational? That’s a bet I’d take.
It’s one thing to disagree with a person on a number of points, and another thing to be unable to respect their epistemology. On difficult matters, where it’s hard to locate an error, you can consider another person’s reasoning sound to respectable standards without agreeing with their conclusions (we’re only human after all,) and on matters of opinion, disagreement does not necessarily imply conflict of epistemology. Religion falls into neither category.
I used to be open to relationships with religious individuals, but eventually I came to the realization that I had been putting more effort into convincing myself that I was tolerant than being realistic about my preferences. I couldn’t be happy with such a relationship beyond the extremely short term.
Desrtopa makes the main points below; I’d like to add:
Even accepting that premise, the difference is that I’m willing to update my map. If a religious person had the same willingness, ey already would no longer be religious.
Could you be comfortable with an agnostic? That would expand your pool somewhat.
Yes, most likely. I don’t see much of a difference between agnosticism and atheism in practice. If a person doesn’t know if God exists (agnostic), ey probably won’t hold an active belief in God (atheist). There are exceptions to that, of course, but in a minority of cases.