It’s been a day since this discussion peaked, and I’ve had a chance to think a little bit more about this on a meta-level:
First of all, having a community built around epistemic hygiene is extremely valuable. Discussions about topics that involve mindkill are incredibly unpleasant, and may make it impossible for such a community to be successful. I therefore fully understand people who want to keep these discussions away from Less Wrong, and I won’t post again on this topic or any other mindkilling topic.
That said, I think the inability to discuss this rationally and dispassionately is a major problem for society in general, which may contribute to some individuals with abnormal psychology reacting in unpredictable ways. My only view on the object-level question is that low status men get a raw deal, that there is no good solution to the problem, and that PUA is probably very bad ethically. I have natural sympathy for low-status men, but I recognize that I may be biased because I have no experience seeing the situation from a female perspective. The post was an attempt to invite people to help me update my moral beliefs, by hearing from people who do not have those biases. Importantly, this could not have been done on any other website, because they would have been unable to convince me that their moral framework was coherent, that they are being honest about their ethical beliefs, or that they have made a good-faith effort to model low status males as relevant participants in the moral calculus.
There was some really good discussion in this thread, particularly Skeptical Lurker’s comment, which may have made me aware of a contradiction in my worldview. I will keep thinking about what updates may be necessary. This is exactly the kind of feedback that I was hoping for—changing your mind is a good thing, and it is only possible if we can gave a genuine discussion as rationalists.
That said, for the Less Wrong community, the cost of these discussions probably outweighs the benefits.
Personally I’m not convinced that your analogy is completely isomorphic to the real world… the only way to improve your status/social skills is to hit on women? That doesn’t sound right to me. You might read a book that’s supposed to be about social effectiveness in general, like The Charisma Myth, before hitting on women. In general, I suspect there are lots of ways to improve your “tickling skills” that don’t involve “tickling people”. For example, lifting weights and buying more fashionable clothes will make you more attractive. Finding women who share personality characteristics with you and making friends on them (without making moves on them) will improve your model of women and help you empathize with them. Working a job that requires you to talk to strangers a lot will make it easier to talk to strangers. Better yet, do a job that requires you to start conversations with and befriend strangers (salesperson?) Or find a close friend who is also single & looking and go out together (it’s easier to be in a friendly, social mood with friends around). (If you don’t have a suitable friend, I suggest developing the social skills & connections to find such a friend before trying to meet women… in social skills terms, making such a friend is level 3 and finding a girlfriend is level 10.) Etc.
It’s been a day since this discussion peaked, and I’ve had a chance to think a little bit more about this on a meta-level:
First of all, having a community built around epistemic hygiene is extremely valuable. Discussions about topics that involve mindkill are incredibly unpleasant, and may make it impossible for such a community to be successful. I therefore fully understand people who want to keep these discussions away from Less Wrong, and I won’t post again on this topic or any other mindkilling topic.
That said, I think the inability to discuss this rationally and dispassionately is a major problem for society in general, which may contribute to some individuals with abnormal psychology reacting in unpredictable ways. My only view on the object-level question is that low status men get a raw deal, that there is no good solution to the problem, and that PUA is probably very bad ethically. I have natural sympathy for low-status men, but I recognize that I may be biased because I have no experience seeing the situation from a female perspective. The post was an attempt to invite people to help me update my moral beliefs, by hearing from people who do not have those biases. Importantly, this could not have been done on any other website, because they would have been unable to convince me that their moral framework was coherent, that they are being honest about their ethical beliefs, or that they have made a good-faith effort to model low status males as relevant participants in the moral calculus.
There was some really good discussion in this thread, particularly Skeptical Lurker’s comment, which may have made me aware of a contradiction in my worldview. I will keep thinking about what updates may be necessary. This is exactly the kind of feedback that I was hoping for—changing your mind is a good thing, and it is only possible if we can gave a genuine discussion as rationalists.
That said, for the Less Wrong community, the cost of these discussions probably outweighs the benefits.
Personally I’m not convinced that your analogy is completely isomorphic to the real world… the only way to improve your status/social skills is to hit on women? That doesn’t sound right to me. You might read a book that’s supposed to be about social effectiveness in general, like The Charisma Myth, before hitting on women. In general, I suspect there are lots of ways to improve your “tickling skills” that don’t involve “tickling people”. For example, lifting weights and buying more fashionable clothes will make you more attractive. Finding women who share personality characteristics with you and making friends on them (without making moves on them) will improve your model of women and help you empathize with them. Working a job that requires you to talk to strangers a lot will make it easier to talk to strangers. Better yet, do a job that requires you to start conversations with and befriend strangers (salesperson?) Or find a close friend who is also single & looking and go out together (it’s easier to be in a friendly, social mood with friends around). (If you don’t have a suitable friend, I suggest developing the social skills & connections to find such a friend before trying to meet women… in social skills terms, making such a friend is level 3 and finding a girlfriend is level 10.) Etc.