But secondly… debate about the reliability of intuitions, really ? Isn’t this basically a very strong sign that modern philosophy can safely be ignored, just like modern astrology ?
Because in a general sense, ignoring a large and useful body of knowledge out of hand and on the grounds that it triggers intuitive dislikes (esp. when said intuitions are based on a weak strawman interpretation of said discipline) is usually not a good move.
More specific to the argument at hand, why should a debate about reliability of intuitions disqualify philosophy? Do you believe this is a settled debate? And if so, on what grounds is it settled?
The center of the issue is that you can’t answer these questions empirically. What observation(s) could you ever make that would settle the matter? We’ve got to invoke some form of philosophical justification even if it is vague and implicit. I’d prefer a more rigorous framework, as I imagine would most here, and that is what philosophy does and why it is still taken seriously, Eliezer’s exasperation and misunderstanding notwithstanding.
More specific to the argument at hand, why should a debate about reliability of intuitions disqualify philosophy? Do you believe this is a settled debate? And if so, on what grounds is it settled?
The center of the issue is that you can’t answer these questions empirically.
I’m not sure what you mean there. Didn’t Luke just present empirical evidence that our intuitions do vary? That answers the question. Our intuitions vary, therefore any way of conducting philosophy based on assuming they don’t is wrong.
Richard: myron isn’t disputing that it’s wrong to presuppose the uniformity of all intuitions. (Though ‘intuitions vary’ is too crude a way of putting it; do all intuitions vary?) He’s claiming that it’s a straw-man to treat more than a handful of modern philosophers as committed to the uniformity of all intuitions. (It would be helpful at this stage for people on both sides to start quoting prominent philosophers weighing in on this very issue. The argument will get nowhere without shared data.)
And, it bears emphasizing: The question of whether certain sorts of intuitions are reliable is partly independent of the question of whether intuitions vary anthropologically. Some mathematical logicians disagree about whether ¬∀x(Fx) intuitively implies ∃x(¬Fx), but very few mathematicians conclude from this disagreement that our mathematical intuitions never give us insight into the truth.
1) Sometimes you can still get useful work done with wrong assumptions (e.g. Newtonian Physics)
2) Bugmeister was talking about rejecting modern philosophy, which isn’t the same as only rejecting “any way of conducting philosophy based on assuming they don’t [vary]”.
The center of the issue is that you can’t answer these questions empirically. What observation(s) could you ever make that would settle the matter? We’ve got to invoke some form of philosophical justification even if it is vague and implicit.
Or we can just toss out the questions as meaningless.
According to Luke, this is not a strawman, but in fact a correct representation of the current state of affairs. I myself am not sure whether that’s the case.
What observation(s) could you ever make that would settle the matter?
I don’t know what you mean by “settle”, but Luke does present several pieces of strong evidence against the proposition that our intuitions can be trusted.
According to Luke, this is not a strawman, but in fact a correct representation of the current state of affairs.
It is correct if you go by a select set of quotes that, from what I can tell, have been chosen specifically to support a presupposed position, i.e., philosophers don’t think about obvious problems which have been intimately entwined with moral and ethical philosophy for hundreds of years.
Obviously I don’t feel that this is correct, or that the quotes given are representative of what they’re being made to represent.
I don’t know what you mean by “settle”, but Luke does present several pieces of strong evidence against the proposition that our intuitions can be trusted.
Sure. And presenting “strong evidence” in a reasoned back-and-forth is the point of philosophy, since every position has evidence which (it considers to be) strong support. This is why the debate is necessary, unless, as I wrote elsewhere, you presuppose there is only one privileged interpretation of the existing data.
If you believe that then I’d refer you to the debate around underdetermination and IBE in philosophy of science for a healthy re-orientation of your worldview.
No.
Why not ?
Because in a general sense, ignoring a large and useful body of knowledge out of hand and on the grounds that it triggers intuitive dislikes (esp. when said intuitions are based on a weak strawman interpretation of said discipline) is usually not a good move.
More specific to the argument at hand, why should a debate about reliability of intuitions disqualify philosophy? Do you believe this is a settled debate? And if so, on what grounds is it settled?
The center of the issue is that you can’t answer these questions empirically. What observation(s) could you ever make that would settle the matter? We’ve got to invoke some form of philosophical justification even if it is vague and implicit. I’d prefer a more rigorous framework, as I imagine would most here, and that is what philosophy does and why it is still taken seriously, Eliezer’s exasperation and misunderstanding notwithstanding.
I’m not sure what you mean there. Didn’t Luke just present empirical evidence that our intuitions do vary? That answers the question. Our intuitions vary, therefore any way of conducting philosophy based on assuming they don’t is wrong.
Richard: myron isn’t disputing that it’s wrong to presuppose the uniformity of all intuitions. (Though ‘intuitions vary’ is too crude a way of putting it; do all intuitions vary?) He’s claiming that it’s a straw-man to treat more than a handful of modern philosophers as committed to the uniformity of all intuitions. (It would be helpful at this stage for people on both sides to start quoting prominent philosophers weighing in on this very issue. The argument will get nowhere without shared data.)
And, it bears emphasizing: The question of whether certain sorts of intuitions are reliable is partly independent of the question of whether intuitions vary anthropologically. Some mathematical logicians disagree about whether ¬∀x(Fx) intuitively implies ∃x(¬Fx), but very few mathematicians conclude from this disagreement that our mathematical intuitions never give us insight into the truth.
1) Sometimes you can still get useful work done with wrong assumptions (e.g. Newtonian Physics)
2) Bugmeister was talking about rejecting modern philosophy, which isn’t the same as only rejecting “any way of conducting philosophy based on assuming they don’t [vary]”.
Or we can just toss out the questions as meaningless.
According to Luke, this is not a strawman, but in fact a correct representation of the current state of affairs. I myself am not sure whether that’s the case.
I don’t know what you mean by “settle”, but Luke does present several pieces of strong evidence against the proposition that our intuitions can be trusted.
It is correct if you go by a select set of quotes that, from what I can tell, have been chosen specifically to support a presupposed position, i.e., philosophers don’t think about obvious problems which have been intimately entwined with moral and ethical philosophy for hundreds of years.
Obviously I don’t feel that this is correct, or that the quotes given are representative of what they’re being made to represent.
Sure. And presenting “strong evidence” in a reasoned back-and-forth is the point of philosophy, since every position has evidence which (it considers to be) strong support. This is why the debate is necessary, unless, as I wrote elsewhere, you presuppose there is only one privileged interpretation of the existing data.
If you believe that then I’d refer you to the debate around underdetermination and IBE in philosophy of science for a healthy re-orientation of your worldview.