I am interested in perceptions of the damage expected to be caused to LW from discussion of this topic and wonder if people can be more precise in their thinking about this. Here are some other scenarios:
If some established members discussed pedophilia and their opinions were within the commonly accepted range of views on the topic, would that reflect poorly on LW? For instance, suppose there was a debate where one pole of opinion was the status quo, and others were that child sex abusers should never be released from prison, or that execution would be an inappropriate punishment.
If some established community members who swore they were not pedophiles held a discussion where they expressed views similar to what I have been presenting, would that be damaging to the community? I gather people have now and then questioned whether adult-child sexual activity always causes harm.
In the above cases, would tagging posts “pedophilia” or “childsexabuse” cause damage?
Suppose a member made posts on ordinary LW topics that were of high quality, but noted now and then that they were a celibate pedophile and would like to remind people that such people are among us all the time, would that cause damage?
Typically in a community the people who care about a subject discuss it and those who don’t do not. If a poll revealed that 90% of the community did not want the topic discussed but a small group kept discussing it, would that insulate the community from damage to any extent?
Typically in a community the people who care about a subject discuss it and those who don’t do not. If a poll revealed that 90% of the community did not want the topic discussed but a small group kept discussing it, would that insulate the community from damage to any extent?
To an extent, but not enough to matter. The topic of child porn is one of the most socially toxic subjects out there, and even being peripherally associated with it can be a life-ending event. Careers have been destroyed, men have been unmade, and Bad Stuff Has Happened in the name of this topic. It does not have to make sense; it does not matter why. What matters is that it is so.
If for no other reason than self defense, I feel these discussions should be blackholed and discouraged with prejudice. We are a rationalist forum, with a specific goal, and the very presence of this topic risks our work. Again, it does not matter that it is unfair, it does not matter that it does not make sense: what matters is that it risks our work, in a nontrivial way.
Your goal is to discuss these topics. Our goal is to spread rationality. These two goals are in conflict for reasons beyond the control of either party, reasons which may or may not make sense but which nevertheless are powerful enough to unmake both of us.
I will not help you in your goal, as it conflicts with mine. I will encourage LW against helping you with your goal, as I feel it conflicts with and is damaging to theirs.
And finally, I recommend you push your agenda on a different forum. I would prefer you not return until you are willing to contribute positively to the core mission of LW—that core mission being the spread and improvement of rational thought processes in the general population. As it stands right now, I feel you have contributed net negative utility to the core mission of LW with your posts, and it disturbs me that you seem unable to see that or understand why.
It seems we have one key difference. Some of you believe that having this topic discussed in the open thread risks serious damage to LW because of the danger of a poor reputation. I am not convinced of this.
If it is not true, then I don’t think anyone has suggested any other reason for harm. If this is true, then my participation may have been harmful, though the marginal harm from a little more discussion seems very small.
So far I made one post in the discussion thread suggesting some pedophiles do not molest children. Following advice there, I made my next post in the open thread, which is this current post. I made one more post in the open thread titled “Assertion: Child porn availability does not increase child sex abuse”. I have responded to comments in all of these threads. My current plan, in response to community concerns, is to reply in these threads but not open any new ones. (I note that because of my low karma, I can’t see the results of the poll, a side effect of the entirely reasonably restriction that I can’t vote in it.)
The topic of child porn is one of the most socially toxic subjects out there, and even being peripherally associated with it can be a life-ending event. Careers have been destroyed, men have been unmade, and Bad Stuff Has Happened in the name of this topic.
For possession this is most assuredly so. Conceivably it’s so for arguing in favor of looser restrictions on it. It’s hard for me to believe that it is so for arguing against such changes or for being a contributor on the same forum where it is discussed. If anyone has such cases, I’d love to hear about them—by private message is fine.
Your goal is to discuss these topics.
I have raised two specific cases where facts aren’t clear and there are issues of different kinds of evidence to weigh in reaching a factual determination under conditions of uncertainty. Others have characterized this as my dressing up my concern for the topic in the guise of rationality. I disagree, and suggest that the reason may be mind-killer reactions—but on your side only. It’s hard to tell if they are representative opinions. There are many, many other ways I could have discussed this topic not related to rationality, and I didn’t, and wouldn’t.
Our goal is to spread rationality.
It would seem that your goal would be advanced by seeing how rationality considerations apply to any area of human endeavor, especially where they have not been widely discussed before. If rationality considerations could apply to the debate on incarceration policies for drug offenders, for instance, it would advance the goals of LW to discuss them. If this isn’t true for celibate pedophilia, it is only because it is a taboo topic. That may be a sufficient reason, but I think it’s worth being clear about that.
The results of the poll, at this moment… rot-13′d to prevent spoilers...
V cersre n frdhrapr bs negvpyrf—mreb; mreb creprag V cersre bar negvpyr bayl—bar; frira creprag V cersre ab negvpyrf, bayl n qvfphffvba va bcra guernq—svir; guveglfvk creprag V cersre abg gb qvfphff guvf gbcvp ng nyy—svir; guveglfvk creprag Fbzrguvat ryfr (cyrnfr rkcynva va n pbzzrag) - mreb; mreb creprag V ershfr gb ibgr ba guvf gnobb gbcvp, whfg fubj zr gur erfhygf—guerr; gjraglbar creprag
That’s very interesting. At what point can one start talking about implications of a poll without it being a spoiler?
I don’t know the actual reasons why my original Discussion post “Assertion: a large proportion of pedophiles are celibate” was deleted—I figure the community has its methods of operation and assume it was all done according to regulations. I am aware of reasons that were given in this thread for wanting it removed—though I don’t know the relationship of those reasons to why it was actually removed.
Survey results suggest considerable support in the community for discussing the topic in the Open Thread. A reasonable person might think it would be appropriate to repost that topic in the Open thread (I have the text of my original post). Such a person would also want to make sure that would not be considered hostile behavior, in the absence of knowing the actual reasons it was removed. I also don’t know what is supposed to happen here when half a community thinks something shouldn’t be discussed and the other half is OK with it.
At what point can one start talking about implications of a poll without it being a spoiler?
I don’t know about any specific rule. The general idea is that people should see the poll first (so that they are not influenced how to vote), but I guess three days later it’s fair game.
I don’t know the actual reasons why my original Discussion post (...) was deleted
Voting means deciding whether members want the article or don’t want the article. Your article was extremely downvoted. Like, one of the most downvoted articles ever; probably in the bottom 2%. So if there was any obvious community consensus about removing an article, it was about this one.
Meta: I think it would be more proper to become familiar with norms of a community first, and publish articles later. Comments like this seem to provide further evidence that you are actually not interested in LessWrong per se, just see it as a platform for your topic.
Survey results suggest considerable support in the community for discussing the topic in the Open Thread.
If you interpret “half of members don’t want to disuss it at all, and the other half prefers keeping it in the open thread only” as a considerable support… well, I guess you were going to interpret almost any result positively.
A reasonable person might think it would be appropriate to repost that topic in the Open thread (I have the text of my original post).
I guess you are going to do it anyway; just let me say there is nothing “reasonable” about reposting a text that got karma below −20.
I also don’t know what is supposed to happen here when half a community thinks something shouldn’t be discussed and the other half is OK with it.
Well, if people have a strong desire to discuss something, they will. And each comment is upvoted or downvoted on its merits. Knowing that a large part of community does not want some topic either makes people comment less on it, or become extra careful when writing about it.
At this point I am no longer interested even in meta-discussions of this topic. Tapping out.
You raise interesting points. One could hypothesize that the downvoting of the original article was due to its placement in the prominent Discussion thread, and seeing it in the open thread people would have not objected to it there. It seems an unlikely interpretation of the bulk of the votes, I agree. The serious downvoting of the original article does weigh heavily on this.
I think those who answered the poll were probably a biased sample in a serious way. Who read it? People who were interested in discussing this topic, and people who were not AND who were still motivated enough to be here to continue arguing for not discussing it. Those who didn’t want it discussed were probably underrerepresented.
How my reputation went from −13 to −40 overnight is intriguing. It had been quite stable, and I made a few posts yesterday that were not especially controversial. I speculate that the tapped-out Viliam-Bur in his review of my posts downvoted them all. I guess that’s fine, but maybe considered at a meta level gives one individual more power than is ideal? It is of course just speculation. I’m interested in alternative hypotheses.
I am interested in perceptions of the damage expected to be caused to LW from discussion of this topic and wonder if people can be more precise in their thinking about this. Here are some other scenarios:
If some established members discussed pedophilia and their opinions were within the commonly accepted range of views on the topic, would that reflect poorly on LW? For instance, suppose there was a debate where one pole of opinion was the status quo, and others were that child sex abusers should never be released from prison, or that execution would be an inappropriate punishment.
If some established community members who swore they were not pedophiles held a discussion where they expressed views similar to what I have been presenting, would that be damaging to the community? I gather people have now and then questioned whether adult-child sexual activity always causes harm.
In the above cases, would tagging posts “pedophilia” or “childsexabuse” cause damage?
Suppose a member made posts on ordinary LW topics that were of high quality, but noted now and then that they were a celibate pedophile and would like to remind people that such people are among us all the time, would that cause damage?
Typically in a community the people who care about a subject discuss it and those who don’t do not. If a poll revealed that 90% of the community did not want the topic discussed but a small group kept discussing it, would that insulate the community from damage to any extent?
To an extent, but not enough to matter. The topic of child porn is one of the most socially toxic subjects out there, and even being peripherally associated with it can be a life-ending event. Careers have been destroyed, men have been unmade, and Bad Stuff Has Happened in the name of this topic. It does not have to make sense; it does not matter why. What matters is that it is so.
If for no other reason than self defense, I feel these discussions should be blackholed and discouraged with prejudice. We are a rationalist forum, with a specific goal, and the very presence of this topic risks our work. Again, it does not matter that it is unfair, it does not matter that it does not make sense: what matters is that it risks our work, in a nontrivial way.
Your goal is to discuss these topics. Our goal is to spread rationality. These two goals are in conflict for reasons beyond the control of either party, reasons which may or may not make sense but which nevertheless are powerful enough to unmake both of us.
I will not help you in your goal, as it conflicts with mine. I will encourage LW against helping you with your goal, as I feel it conflicts with and is damaging to theirs.
And finally, I recommend you push your agenda on a different forum. I would prefer you not return until you are willing to contribute positively to the core mission of LW—that core mission being the spread and improvement of rational thought processes in the general population. As it stands right now, I feel you have contributed net negative utility to the core mission of LW with your posts, and it disturbs me that you seem unable to see that or understand why.
It seems we have one key difference. Some of you believe that having this topic discussed in the open thread risks serious damage to LW because of the danger of a poor reputation. I am not convinced of this.
If it is not true, then I don’t think anyone has suggested any other reason for harm. If this is true, then my participation may have been harmful, though the marginal harm from a little more discussion seems very small.
So far I made one post in the discussion thread suggesting some pedophiles do not molest children. Following advice there, I made my next post in the open thread, which is this current post. I made one more post in the open thread titled “Assertion: Child porn availability does not increase child sex abuse”. I have responded to comments in all of these threads. My current plan, in response to community concerns, is to reply in these threads but not open any new ones. (I note that because of my low karma, I can’t see the results of the poll, a side effect of the entirely reasonably restriction that I can’t vote in it.)
For possession this is most assuredly so. Conceivably it’s so for arguing in favor of looser restrictions on it. It’s hard for me to believe that it is so for arguing against such changes or for being a contributor on the same forum where it is discussed. If anyone has such cases, I’d love to hear about them—by private message is fine.
I have raised two specific cases where facts aren’t clear and there are issues of different kinds of evidence to weigh in reaching a factual determination under conditions of uncertainty. Others have characterized this as my dressing up my concern for the topic in the guise of rationality. I disagree, and suggest that the reason may be mind-killer reactions—but on your side only. It’s hard to tell if they are representative opinions. There are many, many other ways I could have discussed this topic not related to rationality, and I didn’t, and wouldn’t.
It would seem that your goal would be advanced by seeing how rationality considerations apply to any area of human endeavor, especially where they have not been widely discussed before. If rationality considerations could apply to the debate on incarceration policies for drug offenders, for instance, it would advance the goals of LW to discuss them. If this isn’t true for celibate pedophilia, it is only because it is a taboo topic. That may be a sufficient reason, but I think it’s worth being clear about that.
The results of the poll, at this moment… rot-13′d to prevent spoilers...
V cersre n frdhrapr bs negvpyrf—mreb; mreb creprag
V cersre bar negvpyr bayl—bar; frira creprag
V cersre ab negvpyrf, bayl n qvfphffvba va bcra guernq—svir; guveglfvk creprag
V cersre abg gb qvfphff guvf gbcvp ng nyy—svir; guveglfvk creprag
Fbzrguvat ryfr (cyrnfr rkcynva va n pbzzrag) - mreb; mreb creprag
V ershfr gb ibgr ba guvf gnobb gbcvp, whfg fubj zr gur erfhygf—guerr; gjraglbar creprag
That’s very interesting. At what point can one start talking about implications of a poll without it being a spoiler?
I don’t know the actual reasons why my original Discussion post “Assertion: a large proportion of pedophiles are celibate” was deleted—I figure the community has its methods of operation and assume it was all done according to regulations. I am aware of reasons that were given in this thread for wanting it removed—though I don’t know the relationship of those reasons to why it was actually removed.
Survey results suggest considerable support in the community for discussing the topic in the Open Thread. A reasonable person might think it would be appropriate to repost that topic in the Open thread (I have the text of my original post). Such a person would also want to make sure that would not be considered hostile behavior, in the absence of knowing the actual reasons it was removed. I also don’t know what is supposed to happen here when half a community thinks something shouldn’t be discussed and the other half is OK with it.
I don’t know about any specific rule. The general idea is that people should see the poll first (so that they are not influenced how to vote), but I guess three days later it’s fair game.
Voting means deciding whether members want the article or don’t want the article. Your article was extremely downvoted. Like, one of the most downvoted articles ever; probably in the bottom 2%. So if there was any obvious community consensus about removing an article, it was about this one.
Meta: I think it would be more proper to become familiar with norms of a community first, and publish articles later. Comments like this seem to provide further evidence that you are actually not interested in LessWrong per se, just see it as a platform for your topic.
If you interpret “half of members don’t want to disuss it at all, and the other half prefers keeping it in the open thread only” as a considerable support… well, I guess you were going to interpret almost any result positively.
I guess you are going to do it anyway; just let me say there is nothing “reasonable” about reposting a text that got karma below −20.
Well, if people have a strong desire to discuss something, they will. And each comment is upvoted or downvoted on its merits. Knowing that a large part of community does not want some topic either makes people comment less on it, or become extra careful when writing about it.
At this point I am no longer interested even in meta-discussions of this topic. Tapping out.
EDIT: Must… resist… trolling.
You raise interesting points. One could hypothesize that the downvoting of the original article was due to its placement in the prominent Discussion thread, and seeing it in the open thread people would have not objected to it there. It seems an unlikely interpretation of the bulk of the votes, I agree. The serious downvoting of the original article does weigh heavily on this.
I think those who answered the poll were probably a biased sample in a serious way. Who read it? People who were interested in discussing this topic, and people who were not AND who were still motivated enough to be here to continue arguing for not discussing it. Those who didn’t want it discussed were probably underrerepresented.
How my reputation went from −13 to −40 overnight is intriguing. It had been quite stable, and I made a few posts yesterday that were not especially controversial. I speculate that the tapped-out Viliam-Bur in his review of my posts downvoted them all. I guess that’s fine, but maybe considered at a meta level gives one individual more power than is ideal? It is of course just speculation. I’m interested in alternative hypotheses.