Forgive me, but the premise of this post seems unbelievably arrogant. You are interested in communicating with “intellectual elites”; these people have their own communities and channels of communication. Instead of asking what those channels are and how you can become part of them, you instead ask how you can lure those people away from their communities, so that they’ll devote their limited free time to posting on LW instead.
I’m in academia (not an “intellectual elite”, just a lowly grad student), and I’ve often felt torn between my allegiances to the academic community vs. the LessWrong community. In part, the conflict exists because LessWrong frames itself as an alternative to academia, as better than academia, a place where the true intellectuals can congregate, free from the constraints of the system of academic credibility, which unfairly penalizes autodidacts, or something. Academia has its problems, of course, and I agree with some of the LessWrong criticisms of it. But academia does have higher standards of rigor: peer review, actual empirical investigation of phenomena instead of armchair speculation based on the contents of pop science books, and so on. Real scientific investigation is hard work; the average LW commenter seems too plagued by akrasia to put in the long hours that science requires.
So an academic might look at LW and see a bunch of amateurs and slackers; he might view autodidacts as people who demand that things always be their way and refuse to cooperate productively with a larger system. (Such cooperation is necessary because the scientific problems we face are too vast for any individual to make progress on his own; collaboration is essential.) I’m not making all this up; I once heard a professor say that autodidacts often make poor grad students because they have no discipline, flitting back and forth between whatever topics catch their eye, and lacking the ability to focus on a coherent program of study.
Anyway, I just figured I’d point out what this post looks like from within academia. LessWrong has repeatedly rejected academia; now, finally, you are saying something that could be interpreted as “actually, some academics might be worth talking to”. But instead of conceding that academia might have some advantages over LW and thus trying to communicate with academics within their system, you proclaim LessWrong to be “the highest-quality relatively-general-interest form on the web” (which, to me, is obviously false) and then you ask actual accomplished intellectuals to spend their time conversing with a bunch of intelligent-but-undereducated twenty-somethings who nonetheless think they know everything. I say that if members of LW want to communicate with intellectual elites, they should go to a university and do it there. (Though I’m not sure what to recommend for people who have graduated from college already; I’m going into academia so that I don’t have to leave the intellectually stimulating university environment.)
I realize that this comment is awfully arrogant, especially for something that’s accusing you of arrogance. And I realize that you are trying to engage with the academic system by publishing papers in real academic journals. I just think it’s unreasonable to assume that “intellectual elites” (both inside and outside of academia) would care to spend time on LW, or that it would be good for those people if they did.
You are interested in communicating with “intellectual elites”; these people have their own communities and channels of communication. Instead of asking what those channels are and how you can become part of them, you instead ask how you can lure those people away from their communities, so that they’ll devote their limited free time to posting on LW instead.
Attracting academics to Less Wrong is not incompatible with approaching them through academic channels (which MIRI has been doing), and does not require separating them from academic communities (which I doubt MIRI intends to do).
But instead of conceding that academia might have some advantages over LW and thus trying to communicate with academics within their system, you proclaim LessWrong to be “the highest-quality relatively-general-interest form on the web” (which, to me, is obviously false) and then you ask actual accomplished intellectuals to spend their time conversing with a bunch of intelligent-but-undereducated twenty-somethings who nonetheless think they know everything.
Point me to where Luke denied that academia has any advantages over LW. If you’re going to claim that LW is obviously not “the highest-quality relatively-general-interest forum on the web”, it would help your case to provide an obvious counterexample (academic channels themselves are generally not on the web, and LW has some advantages over them, even if the reverse is also true). LW is also not as homogeneous as you appear to believe; plenty of us are academics.
I just think it’s unreasonable to assume that “intellectual elites” (both inside and outside of academia) would care to spend time on LW, or that it would be good for those people if they did.
It is at least as unreasonable to claim without justification that it is impossible to attract intellectual elites to LW, or that it would be bad for those people if they did.
Point me to where Luke denied that academia has any advantages over LW. If you’re going to claim that LW is obviously not “the highest-quality relatively-general-interest forum on the web”, it would help your case to provide an obvious counterexample (academic channels themselves are generally not on the web, and LW has some advantages over them, even if the reverse is also true). LW is also not as homogeneous as you appear to believe; plenty of us are academics.
You’re straw-manning here. Not conceding isn’t the same thing as denying. To not concede something, one just has to omit the concession from one’s writing. But this is just quibbling. The real issue is the attitude, or the arrogance, that LW may have with respect to academia. Nobody wants to waste time justifying themselves to a bunch of arrogant amateurs after all.
Anyway, some web channels where academics hang out:
(Cracked.com probably does a better job of being a smart, general interest forum than Less Wrong, it’s a great deal more popular at least. But being the highest quality popular forum is a bit like being the smartest termite in the world. Specialized forums are where the elite action is.)
What’s up with this dichotomy between LW and academia? I’m sure plenty of people on here have high-level degrees or work in some academic field.
Also: What are a few examples of the arrogance you see against academia on this forum? I would actually express the opposite view, and say that LW is pretty friendly to academia, with people citing mainstream books and articles all the time, etc. Not much fringe stuff going on here as far as I can tell.
What’s up with this dichotomy between LW and academia? I’m sure plenty of people on here have high-level degrees or work in some academic field.
Some of the people on LW have academic degrees or work at academic jobs, but I can’t think of many active posters who seem to be on the track of becoming the sort of academician whom other academicians will recognize and pay attention to.
My impression of the typical LessWronger is someone who might be clever enough to be a run-of-the-mill academic worker, but who didn’t get on with the program where they’d basically need to put the majority of their time and output into the academic machine to get any hope of establishing a career. The equally clever people in academia don’t have spare time to hang out at LW and actually do eventually get quite a lot better at their chosen thing than the average LW’er at any of their miscellaneous interesting things of the week. Meanwhile, LW is the akrasia culture, where the sort of highly focused and high-achieving people who end up making a name for themselves in modern academia are invisible, and the people hanging out here have no way of picking up their cultural habits. Instead, there’s a large peer group of low-achieving procrastinators who like to post interesting forum messages to identify with and unconsciously learn habits from.
You’re straw-manning here. Not conceding isn’t the same thing as denying. To not concede something, one just has to omit the concession from one’s writing.
I’m not sure why anyone would expect a post about trying to attract academics to LW to mention that academia has some advantages over LW. It’s just not relevant to the subject. The fact that MIRI has been increasingly making use of academic channels is an implicit concession that they have advantages.
Anyway, some web channels where academics hang out: …
Ok, yes, there are web-based academic channels. StackExchange is even a good contender for highest-quality relatively-general-interest forum on the web.
Instead of asking what those channels are and how you can become part of them, you instead ask how you can lure those people away from their communities, so that they’ll devote their limited free time to posting on LW instead.
I would love to locate and learn how to integrate into more interesting high-signal channels! If anyone feels like they wouldn’t be polluted with a little attention from LWers, would you mind sharing the ones you know?
Nice rant :-) A bit overboard, though—may I make a suggestion? Read it again, but replace “LW” with “internet discussion forum”. That should put your statements like “LessWrong frames itself as an alternative to academia” or “LessWrong has repeatedly rejected academia” into proper perspective.
I’m not making all this up; I once heard a professor say
LOL
I’d point out what this post looks like from within academia
You do realize that LW has no shortage of grad students and even gasp! actual academics who read and post here?
I say that if members of LW want to communicate with intellectual elites, they should go to a university and do it there.
LAUNCELOT: Look, my liege!
ARTHUR: Camelot!
GALAHAD: Camelot!
LAUNCELOT: Camelot!
PATSY: It's only a model.
ARTHUR: Shhh! Knights, I bid you welcome to your new home. Let us
ride... to Camelot.
[singing]
We're knights of the round table
We dance when e'er we're able
We do routines and parlour scenes
With footwork impecc-Able.
We dine well here in Camelot
We eat ham and jam and spam a lot
[dancing]
We're knights of the Round Table
Our shows are for-mid-able
Though many times we're given rhymes
That are quite unsing-able
We not so fat in Camelot
We sing from the diaphragm a lot
[tap-dancing]
Oh we're tough and able
Quite indefatigable
Between our quests we sequin vests
And impersonate Clark Gable
It's a bit too loud in Camelot
I have to push the pram a lot.
ARTHUR: Well, on second thought, let's not go to Camelot -- it is
a silly place.
Right.
Forgive me, but the premise of this post seems unbelievably arrogant. You are interested in communicating with “intellectual elites”; these people have their own communities and channels of communication. Instead of asking what those channels are and how you can become part of them, you instead ask how you can lure those people away from their communities, so that they’ll devote their limited free time to posting on LW instead.
I’m in academia (not an “intellectual elite”, just a lowly grad student), and I’ve often felt torn between my allegiances to the academic community vs. the LessWrong community. In part, the conflict exists because LessWrong frames itself as an alternative to academia, as better than academia, a place where the true intellectuals can congregate, free from the constraints of the system of academic credibility, which unfairly penalizes autodidacts, or something. Academia has its problems, of course, and I agree with some of the LessWrong criticisms of it. But academia does have higher standards of rigor: peer review, actual empirical investigation of phenomena instead of armchair speculation based on the contents of pop science books, and so on. Real scientific investigation is hard work; the average LW commenter seems too plagued by akrasia to put in the long hours that science requires.
So an academic might look at LW and see a bunch of amateurs and slackers; he might view autodidacts as people who demand that things always be their way and refuse to cooperate productively with a larger system. (Such cooperation is necessary because the scientific problems we face are too vast for any individual to make progress on his own; collaboration is essential.) I’m not making all this up; I once heard a professor say that autodidacts often make poor grad students because they have no discipline, flitting back and forth between whatever topics catch their eye, and lacking the ability to focus on a coherent program of study.
Anyway, I just figured I’d point out what this post looks like from within academia. LessWrong has repeatedly rejected academia; now, finally, you are saying something that could be interpreted as “actually, some academics might be worth talking to”. But instead of conceding that academia might have some advantages over LW and thus trying to communicate with academics within their system, you proclaim LessWrong to be “the highest-quality relatively-general-interest form on the web” (which, to me, is obviously false) and then you ask actual accomplished intellectuals to spend their time conversing with a bunch of intelligent-but-undereducated twenty-somethings who nonetheless think they know everything. I say that if members of LW want to communicate with intellectual elites, they should go to a university and do it there. (Though I’m not sure what to recommend for people who have graduated from college already; I’m going into academia so that I don’t have to leave the intellectually stimulating university environment.)
I realize that this comment is awfully arrogant, especially for something that’s accusing you of arrogance. And I realize that you are trying to engage with the academic system by publishing papers in real academic journals. I just think it’s unreasonable to assume that “intellectual elites” (both inside and outside of academia) would care to spend time on LW, or that it would be good for those people if they did.
Attracting academics to Less Wrong is not incompatible with approaching them through academic channels (which MIRI has been doing), and does not require separating them from academic communities (which I doubt MIRI intends to do).
Point me to where Luke denied that academia has any advantages over LW. If you’re going to claim that LW is obviously not “the highest-quality relatively-general-interest forum on the web”, it would help your case to provide an obvious counterexample (academic channels themselves are generally not on the web, and LW has some advantages over them, even if the reverse is also true). LW is also not as homogeneous as you appear to believe; plenty of us are academics.
It is at least as unreasonable to claim without justification that it is impossible to attract intellectual elites to LW, or that it would be bad for those people if they did.
You’re straw-manning here. Not conceding isn’t the same thing as denying. To not concede something, one just has to omit the concession from one’s writing. But this is just quibbling. The real issue is the attitude, or the arrogance, that LW may have with respect to academia. Nobody wants to waste time justifying themselves to a bunch of arrogant amateurs after all.
Anyway, some web channels where academics hang out:
MathOverflow
LambdaTheUltimate
The arXiv
StackExchange
The N-Category Cafe http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/
ScienceBlogs
(Cracked.com probably does a better job of being a smart, general interest forum than Less Wrong, it’s a great deal more popular at least. But being the highest quality popular forum is a bit like being the smartest termite in the world. Specialized forums are where the elite action is.)
Another channel where academics hang out:
Less Wrong
What’s up with this dichotomy between LW and academia? I’m sure plenty of people on here have high-level degrees or work in some academic field.
Also: What are a few examples of the arrogance you see against academia on this forum? I would actually express the opposite view, and say that LW is pretty friendly to academia, with people citing mainstream books and articles all the time, etc. Not much fringe stuff going on here as far as I can tell.
Some of the people on LW have academic degrees or work at academic jobs, but I can’t think of many active posters who seem to be on the track of becoming the sort of academician whom other academicians will recognize and pay attention to.
My impression of the typical LessWronger is someone who might be clever enough to be a run-of-the-mill academic worker, but who didn’t get on with the program where they’d basically need to put the majority of their time and output into the academic machine to get any hope of establishing a career. The equally clever people in academia don’t have spare time to hang out at LW and actually do eventually get quite a lot better at their chosen thing than the average LW’er at any of their miscellaneous interesting things of the week. Meanwhile, LW is the akrasia culture, where the sort of highly focused and high-achieving people who end up making a name for themselves in modern academia are invisible, and the people hanging out here have no way of picking up their cultural habits. Instead, there’s a large peer group of low-achieving procrastinators who like to post interesting forum messages to identify with and unconsciously learn habits from.
I’m not sure why anyone would expect a post about trying to attract academics to LW to mention that academia has some advantages over LW. It’s just not relevant to the subject. The fact that MIRI has been increasingly making use of academic channels is an implicit concession that they have advantages.
Ok, yes, there are web-based academic channels. StackExchange is even a good contender for highest-quality relatively-general-interest forum on the web.
(Cracked? Are you kidding?)
I would love to locate and learn how to integrate into more interesting high-signal channels! If anyone feels like they wouldn’t be polluted with a little attention from LWers, would you mind sharing the ones you know?
Nice rant :-) A bit overboard, though—may I make a suggestion? Read it again, but replace “LW” with “internet discussion forum”. That should put your statements like “LessWrong frames itself as an alternative to academia” or “LessWrong has repeatedly rejected academia” into proper perspective.
LOL
You do realize that LW has no shortage of grad students and even gasp! actual academics who read and post here?