ok, so what you are saying is that in this hypothetical weirdtopia you’ve worked it out that women are more likely to initiate sex and to take it too far and disregard the signals of the male if he’s saying something like “no stop, I don’t want to”
which is certainly different from how we order the world in western society. and a valad premise on which to build a social-sci-fi story about the possible implications of such a role reversal. which is exactly what you haven’t done.
you just used the word “rape” which is a loaded word, when you should not have done so and with out showing the context in the story instead explaining here, I assume there is a scene between two characters later in the story wherein a male is taken advantage of by a female and it all becomes clear.
also female on male sexual assault is a very real thing today and again not to be taken lightly or mentioned but not shown or explained. I am aware I am commenting on your explanation, it is not an in-story explanation, I had to scroll all the way down here to see it.
(I must say here that I looked up Miss Manners on the point of women initiating relations and she says that when one plays the gentleman’s part one must be gentlemanly about it even if one happens to be a lady, the gentleman must gracefully accept a refusal and ladies always have the right to refuse or accept as they choose. this seems to square better with my actual experiences of asking men out.)
also you have supplied what seems like the kind of muddle minded defense and reasoning one might put behind something you as the author are sexually attracted too, which is fine, as I mentioned before you are in the company of sci-fi giants in that regard. might have been better done with an actual sex scene, if you are going for author appeal why not go all out?
I still feel that dropping in “rape is legal and it is not explained why this is so in the story and it was dropped in as a side comment purely to get a rise out of the audience” is an unnecessary part of the story to drop on the reader. I’m more shocked in terms of anthropological criticism than anything else.
oh yes, and I’m shocked, viscerally as a woman, at the idea of not having legal recourse in the case of a sexual assault, and of such an attack being my fault for a lack of constant vigilance. makes me think those anti-rape toothed condom/protectors as more practical than they already are.
someone mentioned that they could not think of an idea that would shock men emotionally and women intellectually the same way. I decided to give it a try: “oh yes and after age 30 we castrate all the males to reduce incidence of children born with trisonomy 23”
A number of people have asked about that feature of weirdtopia, and as far as I know, Eliezer has never answered.
ETA: My mistake. I was going by memory rather than checking the context. Eliezer has an answer upthread. I can’t say it makes a tremendous amount of sense to me, but I’ll give it another reading.
ETA2: I think I understand Eliezer’s ideas. I’m not sure the boundaries of sexual consent are that easily changed.
I can imagine a society where there are clear (or as clear as such things are among neurotypicals) signals for playing rape fantasies out. If it’s the latter level of clarity, it would be a nightmarish place for those who are bad at the signals, but good enough for fiction fodder.
It’s harder to imagine a society where there are no pairs of people where one person is attracted to the other while the other is emphatically and consistently repulsed by the first.
In the real world, men don’t like being bullied or harassed about sex. And this applies to heterosexual men being bullied or harassed by women. It’s just less likely to happen than the other way around.
Something I didn’t get around to posting in a previous discussion of relationships between men and women. There’s been a lot of talk about the difficulties for men of having to make the first move. Those difficulties are quite real, but there’s a non-obvious advantage—if you’re always making the first move, you can be sure (unless you’re being pushed by family or friends) that you’re making your own choices.
ok, so what you are saying is that in this hypothetical weirdtopia you’ve worked it out that women are more likely to initiate sex and to take it too far and disregard the signals of the male if he’s saying something like “no stop, I don’t want to”
which is certainly different from how we order the world in western society. and a valad premise on which to build a social-sci-fi story about the possible implications of such a role reversal. which is exactly what you haven’t done.
you just used the word “rape” which is a loaded word, when you should not have done so and with out showing the context in the story instead explaining here, I assume there is a scene between two characters later in the story wherein a male is taken advantage of by a female and it all becomes clear.
also female on male sexual assault is a very real thing today and again not to be taken lightly or mentioned but not shown or explained. I am aware I am commenting on your explanation, it is not an in-story explanation, I had to scroll all the way down here to see it.
(I must say here that I looked up Miss Manners on the point of women initiating relations and she says that when one plays the gentleman’s part one must be gentlemanly about it even if one happens to be a lady, the gentleman must gracefully accept a refusal and ladies always have the right to refuse or accept as they choose. this seems to square better with my actual experiences of asking men out.)
also you have supplied what seems like the kind of muddle minded defense and reasoning one might put behind something you as the author are sexually attracted too, which is fine, as I mentioned before you are in the company of sci-fi giants in that regard. might have been better done with an actual sex scene, if you are going for author appeal why not go all out?
I still feel that dropping in “rape is legal and it is not explained why this is so in the story and it was dropped in as a side comment purely to get a rise out of the audience” is an unnecessary part of the story to drop on the reader. I’m more shocked in terms of anthropological criticism than anything else.
oh yes, and I’m shocked, viscerally as a woman, at the idea of not having legal recourse in the case of a sexual assault, and of such an attack being my fault for a lack of constant vigilance. makes me think those anti-rape toothed condom/protectors as more practical than they already are.
someone mentioned that they could not think of an idea that would shock men emotionally and women intellectually the same way.
I decided to give it a try: “oh yes and after age 30 we castrate all the males to reduce incidence of children born with trisonomy 23”
A number of people have asked about that feature of weirdtopia, and as far as I know, Eliezer has never answered.
ETA: My mistake. I was going by memory rather than checking the context. Eliezer has an answer upthread. I can’t say it makes a tremendous amount of sense to me, but I’ll give it another reading.
ETA2: I think I understand Eliezer’s ideas. I’m not sure the boundaries of sexual consent are that easily changed.
I can imagine a society where there are clear (or as clear as such things are among neurotypicals) signals for playing rape fantasies out. If it’s the latter level of clarity, it would be a nightmarish place for those who are bad at the signals, but good enough for fiction fodder.
It’s harder to imagine a society where there are no pairs of people where one person is attracted to the other while the other is emphatically and consistently repulsed by the first.
In the real world, men don’t like being bullied or harassed about sex. And this applies to heterosexual men being bullied or harassed by women. It’s just less likely to happen than the other way around.
Something I didn’t get around to posting in a previous discussion of relationships between men and women. There’s been a lot of talk about the difficulties for men of having to make the first move. Those difficulties are quite real, but there’s a non-obvious advantage—if you’re always making the first move, you can be sure (unless you’re being pushed by family or friends) that you’re making your own choices.
Um, grandparent of above comment much? http://lesswrong.com/lw/y8/interlude_with_the_confessor_48/qtf