I’ve worried about it’s sustainability, but do you think it’s been a good path for you?
Cutting out bird and seafood products (ameliatarianism) is definitely more sustainable for me. I’m very confused why you would think it’s less sustainable than, uh, ‘cold turkey’ veganism. “Just avoid chicken/eggs” (since I don’t like seafood or the other types of bird meat products) is way easier than “avoid all meat, also milk, also cheese”.
My sense is that different people struggle with staying on a suffering-reducing diet for different reasons, and they have different solutions. Some people do need a commitment to a greater principle to make it work, and they typical mind that other people can’t (but aren’t wrong that people tend to overestimate themselves). Some people really need a little bit of animal nutrition but stop when that need is filled, and it’s not a slippery slope for them[1]and maybe miss that other people can’t stop where they can, although this group tends to be less evangelical so it causes fewer problems..
If the general conversation around ethics and nutrition were in a better place, I think it would be useful to look at how much of “veganism as a hard line” is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and what new equilibriums could be created. Does telling people “if you cross this line once you’ll inevitably slide into full blow carnism” make it more likely? Could advocates create a new hard line that gave people strength but had space for people for whom the trade-offs of total abstention are too hard? Or maybe not-even-once is the best line to hold, and does more good on net even if it drives some people away.
I don’t feel like I can be in that conversation, for a lot of reasons. But I hope it happens
I think the first paragraph is well put, and do agree that my camp is likely more apt to be evangelical. But I also want to say that I don’t think the second paragraph is quite representative. I know approximately 0 vegans that support the “cross the line once” philosophy. I think the current status quo is something much closer to what you imagine in the second to last sentence, where the recommendation that’s most often come to me is “look, as long as you are really thinking about it and trying to do what’s best not just for you but for the animals as well, that’s all it takes. We all have weak moments and veganism doesn’t mean perfection, it’s just doing the best with what you’ve got”[1]
Sure, there are some obvious caveats here like you can’t be a vegan if you haven’t significantly reduced your consumption of animals/animal products. Joe, who eats steak every night and starts every morning with eggs and cheese and a nice hearty glass of dairy milk won’t really be a vegan even if he claims the title. But I don’t see the average vegan casting stones at and of the various partial reduction diets, generally I think they’re happy to just have some more people on board.
I don’t see the average vegan casting stones at and of the various partial reduction diets,
I have seen a lot of stones cast about this. I’d believe that the 50th percentile vegan doesn’t, but in practice the ones who care a lot are the ones potential reducitarians hear from.
Sure, sure. I’m not saying there isn’t perhaps an extreme wing, I just think it’s quite important to say this isn’t the average, and highlight that the majority of vegans have a view more like the one I mentioned above.
I think this is a distinction worth making, because when you collapse everyone into one camp, you begin to alienate the majority that actually more or less agrees with you. I don’t know what the term for the group you’re talking about is, but maybe evangelical vegans isn’t a bad term to use for now.
While I think the environmental sustainability angle is also an active thing to think about here (because beef potentially involves less suffering for the animals, but relatively more harm to the environment), I did actually intend sustainability in the spirit of “able to stick with it for a long period of time” or something like that. Probably could have been clearer.
What Elizabeth had to say here is broadly right. See my comment above, for some more in depth reasoning as to why I think the opposite may be true, but basically I think that the sort of loving relationship formed with other animals that I imagine as the thing that holds together commitment over a long period of time, over a large range of hard circumstances, is tricky to create when you don’t go full on. I have no idea what’s sustainable for you though, and want to emphasize that whatever works to reduce is something I’m happy with, so I’m quite glad for your ameliatarian addition.
I’m also trying to update my views here, so can I ask for how long you’ve been on a veg diet? And if you predict any changes in the near future?
Cutting out bird and seafood products (ameliatarianism) is definitely more sustainable for me. I’m very confused why you would think it’s less sustainable than, uh, ‘cold turkey’ veganism. “Just avoid chicken/eggs” (since I don’t like seafood or the other types of bird meat products) is way easier than “avoid all meat, also milk, also cheese”.
My sense is that different people struggle with staying on a suffering-reducing diet for different reasons, and they have different solutions. Some people do need a commitment to a greater principle to make it work, and they typical mind that other people can’t (but aren’t wrong that people tend to overestimate themselves). Some people really need a little bit of animal nutrition but stop when that need is filled, and it’s not a slippery slope for them[1]and maybe miss that other people can’t stop where they can, although this group tends to be less evangelical so it causes fewer problems..
If the general conversation around ethics and nutrition were in a better place, I think it would be useful to look at how much of “veganism as a hard line” is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and what new equilibriums could be created. Does telling people “if you cross this line once you’ll inevitably slide into full blow carnism” make it more likely? Could advocates create a new hard line that gave people strength but had space for people for whom the trade-offs of total abstention are too hard? Or maybe not-even-once is the best line to hold, and does more good on net even if it drives some people away.
I don’t feel like I can be in that conversation, for a lot of reasons. But I hope it happens
and maybe miss that other people can’t stop where they can, although this group tends to be less evangelical so it causes fewer problems.
I think the first paragraph is well put, and do agree that my camp is likely more apt to be evangelical. But I also want to say that I don’t think the second paragraph is quite representative. I know approximately 0 vegans that support the “cross the line once” philosophy. I think the current status quo is something much closer to what you imagine in the second to last sentence, where the recommendation that’s most often come to me is “look, as long as you are really thinking about it and trying to do what’s best not just for you but for the animals as well, that’s all it takes. We all have weak moments and veganism doesn’t mean perfection, it’s just doing the best with what you’ve got”[1]
Sure, there are some obvious caveats here like you can’t be a vegan if you haven’t significantly reduced your consumption of animals/animal products. Joe, who eats steak every night and starts every morning with eggs and cheese and a nice hearty glass of dairy milk won’t really be a vegan even if he claims the title. But I don’t see the average vegan casting stones at and of the various partial reduction diets, generally I think they’re happy to just have some more people on board.
I have seen a lot of stones cast about this. I’d believe that the 50th percentile vegan doesn’t, but in practice the ones who care a lot are the ones potential reducitarians hear from.
Sure, sure. I’m not saying there isn’t perhaps an extreme wing, I just think it’s quite important to say this isn’t the average, and highlight that the majority of vegans have a view more like the one I mentioned above.
I think this is a distinction worth making, because when you collapse everyone into one camp, you begin to alienate the majority that actually more or less agrees with you. I don’t know what the term for the group you’re talking about is, but maybe evangelical vegans isn’t a bad term to use for now.
I took Tristan to be using “sustainability” in the sense of “lessened environmental impact”, not “requiring little willpower”
While I think the environmental sustainability angle is also an active thing to think about here (because beef potentially involves less suffering for the animals, but relatively more harm to the environment), I did actually intend sustainability in the spirit of “able to stick with it for a long period of time” or something like that. Probably could have been clearer.
What Elizabeth had to say here is broadly right. See my comment above, for some more in depth reasoning as to why I think the opposite may be true, but basically I think that the sort of loving relationship formed with other animals that I imagine as the thing that holds together commitment over a long period of time, over a large range of hard circumstances, is tricky to create when you don’t go full on. I have no idea what’s sustainable for you though, and want to emphasize that whatever works to reduce is something I’m happy with, so I’m quite glad for your ameliatarian addition.
I’m also trying to update my views here, so can I ask for how long you’ve been on a veg diet? And if you predict any changes in the near future?