“Often I hear guys complain that an advance is deemed “creepy” if it’s unwelcome, but not if the same thing were said or done by an attractive man.”
Yes that seems to be the crux of some criticism, and for good reason. Anyone who has been through high-school knows a lot of unattractive or socially undesirable men get tremendous backlash for behaviors that a desirable men get away with. It doesn’t help that sometimes the word creep is a slur for an unattractive person hitting on another. The complaint goes beyond the double-standard, it sends a message that people have a right not to feel creeped out even when the feeling is unwarranted, and therefore benign behaviors (too much chatting or asking for a number) should be avoided altogether by some, specifically the awkward.
And many may also feel genuinely unsafe, but the advice given by many is to improve social skills or courting behavior, and this doesn’t mitigate any real harm. The legitimate creep or the awkward geek is not any less dangerous because he read Dale Carnegie or a PUA website.
Granted, some of the anecdotes are cause for legitimate concern, but I’m not addressing those.
it sends a message that people have a right not to feel creeped out even when the feeling is unwarranted
The word “right” seems to be unwarranted here. It’s not clear that people have a moral right not to be exposed to rude or anti-social behavior, but this does not make the behavior any less rude or anti-social. There is such a thing as good etiquette, however minor and trifling it may be when contrasted with genuine ethical concerns.
The legitimate creep or the awkward geek is not any less dangerous because he read Dale Carnegie or a PUA website.
But an awkward geek may unwittingly behave in ways that make people mistake him for a creeper; reading Dale Carnegie is a good way to address this. As for legitimate creepers, it would be nice if they too could reform and stop posing a danger to others; unfortunately, most of them seem to be actively hostile towards other people and lacking in empathy, so this is not a likely prospect.
As for legitimate creepers, it would be nice if they too could reform and stop posing a danger to others; unfortunately, most of them seem to be actively hostile towards other people and lacking in empathy, so this is not a likely prospect.
I think your confusing what John meant. Learning PUA/Carnegie doesn’t change someone’s goals only the means. A legitimate creep who acquires better social skills, doesn’t become a normal non-creep, he becomes a charming sociopath.
And many may also feel genuinely unsafe, but the advice given by many is to improve social skills or courting behavior, and this doesn’t mitigate any real harm.
This is not true. Actually creepy folks use unwillingness to reflect on social skills of society in general as camouflage. When called on their behavior, they can say something like “I was only joking” and escape most of the consequences.
But if society as a whole was more explicit about social norms, then (1) people who have trouble picking up social norms would be happier because the norms would be easier to learn, (2) people who want others to follow the norms without being required to follow themselves would have less room to operate, and (3) people who want to change the social norms would have an easier time communicating the case for a change of the norms.
I guess it might first help to define what creepy folks are. If we mean someone who is socially oblivious who is interested in a date, then it is undeniably false that all are using it as a form of camouflage, as many could attest to.
By mitigating real harm I mean mitigating the risk of a woman being near a potentially dangerous or coercive man, where some in the comments have said the “creepy” fear actually stems from, but awkward people can also give out this false signal. If this is true, then taking steps to improve ones social skills makes the safe men more accessible, but also gives ammo to a potentially dangerous one as well. No risk of harm is reduced.
Anyone who has been through high-school knows a lot of unattractive or socially undesirable men get tremendous backlash for behaviors that a desirable men get away with.
I didn’t go to a coed highschool, but I imagine a lot of that backlash was status signalling, and the target of the advance wasn’t genuinely aggrieved. So, that isn’t just.
But factoring that out, I think it’s quite right to view a guy making a bunch of unwanted advances as rather a jerk, depending on how much he makes rejecting him suck for the targets. He’s generating a bunch of negative utility.
When I see guys with poor social skills complain about this, it basically amounts to saying that it’s not fair. Sure—it’s not fair that looks and charm get parcelled out unevenly, but so what? You still don’t get to make your problem someone else’s.
It’s not fair that we become more unattractive as we age, but a 70 year old man who constantly makes unwelcome advances on young women is rightly viewed with contempt.
It’s not fair that gay men and women can very seldom hit on strangers with a good expected utility either. It doesn’t make it okay for them to just “assume they’re gay until stated otherwise”, given that most people are straight.
“I think it’s quite right to view a guy making a bunch of unwanted advances as rather a jerk, depending on how much he makes rejecting him suck for the targets. He’s generating a bunch of negative utility.”
Yes in that situation one would be jerk, but not everyone was complaining about a bunch of advances (and I did say that some of the grievances were justified), but even one advance or something that could have been miscontrued as an advance. If we (safely) assume the anecdotes come from people who have freely given out their number or have let a guy talk over them, then it sets a tone that the socially awkward should come off as asexual as possible to avoid offending a member of the opposite sex. That doesn’t seem like a reasonable expectation to put on others.
“Often I hear guys complain that an advance is deemed “creepy” if it’s unwelcome, but not if the same thing were said or done by an attractive man.”
Yes that seems to be the crux of some criticism, and for good reason. Anyone who has been through high-school knows a lot of unattractive or socially undesirable men get tremendous backlash for behaviors that a desirable men get away with. It doesn’t help that sometimes the word creep is a slur for an unattractive person hitting on another. The complaint goes beyond the double-standard, it sends a message that people have a right not to feel creeped out even when the feeling is unwarranted, and therefore benign behaviors (too much chatting or asking for a number) should be avoided altogether by some, specifically the awkward.
And many may also feel genuinely unsafe, but the advice given by many is to improve social skills or courting behavior, and this doesn’t mitigate any real harm. The legitimate creep or the awkward geek is not any less dangerous because he read Dale Carnegie or a PUA website.
Granted, some of the anecdotes are cause for legitimate concern, but I’m not addressing those.
The word “right” seems to be unwarranted here. It’s not clear that people have a moral right not to be exposed to rude or anti-social behavior, but this does not make the behavior any less rude or anti-social. There is such a thing as good etiquette, however minor and trifling it may be when contrasted with genuine ethical concerns.
But an awkward geek may unwittingly behave in ways that make people mistake him for a creeper; reading Dale Carnegie is a good way to address this. As for legitimate creepers, it would be nice if they too could reform and stop posing a danger to others; unfortunately, most of them seem to be actively hostile towards other people and lacking in empathy, so this is not a likely prospect.
I think your confusing what John meant. Learning PUA/Carnegie doesn’t change someone’s goals only the means. A legitimate creep who acquires better social skills, doesn’t become a normal non-creep, he becomes a charming sociopath.
This is not true. Actually creepy folks use unwillingness to reflect on social skills of society in general as camouflage. When called on their behavior, they can say something like “I was only joking” and escape most of the consequences.
But if society as a whole was more explicit about social norms, then (1) people who have trouble picking up social norms would be happier because the norms would be easier to learn, (2) people who want others to follow the norms without being required to follow themselves would have less room to operate, and (3) people who want to change the social norms would have an easier time communicating the case for a change of the norms.
In general the stricter the social norms the less room for trying to change them.
In small groups, social norms can seem very resilient and yet actually be very fragile.
I guess it might first help to define what creepy folks are. If we mean someone who is socially oblivious who is interested in a date, then it is undeniably false that all are using it as a form of camouflage, as many could attest to.
By mitigating real harm I mean mitigating the risk of a woman being near a potentially dangerous or coercive man, where some in the comments have said the “creepy” fear actually stems from, but awkward people can also give out this false signal. If this is true, then taking steps to improve ones social skills makes the safe men more accessible, but also gives ammo to a potentially dangerous one as well. No risk of harm is reduced.
I didn’t go to a coed highschool, but I imagine a lot of that backlash was status signalling, and the target of the advance wasn’t genuinely aggrieved. So, that isn’t just.
But factoring that out, I think it’s quite right to view a guy making a bunch of unwanted advances as rather a jerk, depending on how much he makes rejecting him suck for the targets. He’s generating a bunch of negative utility.
When I see guys with poor social skills complain about this, it basically amounts to saying that it’s not fair. Sure—it’s not fair that looks and charm get parcelled out unevenly, but so what? You still don’t get to make your problem someone else’s.
It’s not fair that we become more unattractive as we age, but a 70 year old man who constantly makes unwelcome advances on young women is rightly viewed with contempt.
It’s not fair that gay men and women can very seldom hit on strangers with a good expected utility either. It doesn’t make it okay for them to just “assume they’re gay until stated otherwise”, given that most people are straight.
“I think it’s quite right to view a guy making a bunch of unwanted advances as rather a jerk, depending on how much he makes rejecting him suck for the targets. He’s generating a bunch of negative utility.”
Yes in that situation one would be jerk, but not everyone was complaining about a bunch of advances (and I did say that some of the grievances were justified), but even one advance or something that could have been miscontrued as an advance. If we (safely) assume the anecdotes come from people who have freely given out their number or have let a guy talk over them, then it sets a tone that the socially awkward should come off as asexual as possible to avoid offending a member of the opposite sex. That doesn’t seem like a reasonable expectation to put on others.