My idea with second question was to understand if there is like an anarchist motivation around bitcoin that may have some risks in the future. I mean, if somehow when it reaches Wall Street the original developers can do anythink to affect credibility.
You say you don’t think it was Szabo. Have you ever try to know who he was? Could you share who is your solid hunch and why?
Is relevant to know Satoshi?
If you know what you know today, would you have patented bmoney? Do you think bitcoin inventers would have done the same?
My idea with second question was to understand if there is like an anarchist motivation around bitcoin that may have some risks in the future.
Ok, I think I see what you’re getting at. First of all, crypto-anarchy is very different from plain anarchy. We (or at least I) weren’t trying to destroy government, but just create new virtual communities that aren’t ruled by the threat of violence. Second I’m not sure Satoshi would even consider himself a crypto-anarchist. I think he might have been motivated more by a distrust of financial institutions and government monetary authorities and wanted to create a monetary system that didn’t have to depend on such trust. All in all, I don’t think there is much risk in this regard.
You say you don’t think it was Szabo. Have you ever try to know who he was? Could you share who is your solid hunch and why?
I haven’t personally made any attempts to find out who he is, nor do I have any idea how. My guess is that he’s not anyone who was previously active in the academic cryptography or cypherpunks communities, because otherwise he probably would have been identified by now based on his writing and coding styles.
Is relevant to know Satoshi?
I think at this point it doesn’t matter too much, except to satisfy people’s curiosity.
If you know what you know today, would you have patented bmoney? Do you think bitcoin inventers would have done the same?
No, because along with a number of other reasons not to patent it, the whole point of b-money was to have a money system that governments can’t control or shut down by force, so how would I be able to enforce the patent? I don’t think Satoshi would have patented his ideas either, because I think he is not motivated mainly to personally make money, but to change the world and to solve an interesting technical problem. Otherwise he would have sold at least some of his mined Bitcoins in order to spend or to diversify into other investments.
You say other previously active member would have been identified base on this writing and coding style. There is exacly what Skye Grey says he/she’s doing for matching Szabo with Satoshi on the blog LikeinaMirror—he say’s he’s 99,9% sure Szabo is Satoshi. https://likeinamirror.wordpress.com/2014/03/
Dorian Nakamoto theory may have any ground?
What made you think Satoshi motivation was distrust rather than crypto-anarchy? Someone that have loose money for instance in Lehman Brothers banrupcy? It was also in 2008
Why is anonimity important to crypto community? Just to confirm, Wei Dai is a pseudonym?
What made you think Satoshi motivation was distrust rather than crypto-anarchy? Someone that have loose money for instance in Lehman Brothers banrupcy? It was also in 2008
Because he said so. Haven’t you done any background reading? (And how many private individuals could have lost money in Lehman Brothers anyway...)
The concerns in this space go beyond personal safety, though that isn’t an insignificant one. For safety, It doesn’t matter what one can prove because almost by definition anyone who is going to be dangerous is not behaving in an informed and rational way, consider the crazy person who was threatening Gwern. It’s also not possible to actually prove you do not own a large number of Bitcoins—the coins themselves are pseudonymous, and many people can not imagine that a person would willingly part with a large amount of money (or decline to take it in the first place).
No one knows which, if any, Bitcoins are owned by the system’s creator. There is a lot of speculation which is know to me to be bogus; e.g. identifying my coins as having belonged to the creator. So even if someone were to provably dispose of all their holdings, there will be people alleging other coins.
The bigger issue is that the Bitcoin system gains much of its unique value by being defined by software, by mechanical rule and not trust. In a sense, Bitcoin matters because its creator doesn’t. This is a hard concept for most people, and there is a constant demand by the public to identify “the person in charge”. To stand out risks being appointed Bitcoin’s central banker for life, and in doing so undermine much of what Bitcoin has accomplished.
Being a “thought leader” also produces significant demands on your time which can inhibit making meaningful accomplishments.
Finally, it would be an act which couldn’t be reversed.
consider the crazy person who was threatening Gwern
That’s a fair point. There is some amount of personal risk intrinsic to being famous. In this specific case there is also certainly a political element involved which could shift the probabilities significantly.
It’s also not possible to actually prove you do not own a large number of Bitcoins
This is also fair. I more assumed that if the most obvious large quantity were destroyed it would act to significantly dissuade rational attackers. Why not go kidnap a random early Google employee instead if you don’t have significant reason to believe the inventor’s wealth exceeds that scale? But yes, in any case, it’s not a perfect solution.
In a sense, Bitcoin matters because its creator doesn’t.
I don’t see it as a required logical consequence that Bitcoin matters because the inventor is unknown. It stands on its own merit. You don’t have to know or not know anything about the inventor to know if the system works.
To stand out risks being appointed Bitcoin’s central banker for life, and in doing so undermine much of what Bitcoin has accomplished.
I guess you’re maybe assuming there’s a risk the majority would amend the protocol rules to explicitly grant the inventor this power? They could theoretically do that without their True Name being known. Or perhaps there’s a more basic risk that people would weigh the inventor’s opinion above all and as such the inventor and protocol would be newly subject to coercion? It doesn’t seem to me like this presents a real risk to the system (although perhaps increased risk to the inventor.) I think this would assume ignorance controls a majority of the interest in the system and that it’s more fragile than it appears. Please correct as necessary. I put a few words in your mouth there for the sake of advancing discussion.
Being a “thought leader” also produces significant demands on your time which can inhibit making meaningful accomplishments.
My intuition is that this may be the most significant factor from the inventor’s perspective. It is certainly a valid concern.
Finally, it would be an act which couldn’t be reversed.
Obviously true. Do the risks presented outweigh the potential benefits to humanity? I don’t know but I think it’s fair to say the identity of the creator does in fact matter—but not necessarily to the continued functioning of Bitcoin.
If the identity of the individual were confirmed it would perhaps, at a minimum, elevate their engineer/thinker status such that other ideas and pieces of work attributed to them may receive more attention (and maybe help) from many others who would perhaps not otherwise have happened upon them.
This is interesting and something I hadn’t thought about. Now I’m more curious who Satoshi is and why he or she or they have decided to remain anonymous. Thanks! You might want to post your idea somewhere else too, like the Bitcoin reddit or forum, since probably not many people will get to read it here.
Bruce Wayne: As a man, I’m flesh and blood, I can be ignored, I can be destroyed; but as a symbol… as a symbol I can be incorruptible, I can be everlasting.
Thank you so much Wei Dai.
My idea with second question was to understand if there is like an anarchist motivation around bitcoin that may have some risks in the future. I mean, if somehow when it reaches Wall Street the original developers can do anythink to affect credibility.
You say you don’t think it was Szabo. Have you ever try to know who he was? Could you share who is your solid hunch and why?
Is relevant to know Satoshi?
If you know what you know today, would you have patented bmoney? Do you think bitcoin inventers would have done the same?
Kind regards Marta
Ok, I think I see what you’re getting at. First of all, crypto-anarchy is very different from plain anarchy. We (or at least I) weren’t trying to destroy government, but just create new virtual communities that aren’t ruled by the threat of violence. Second I’m not sure Satoshi would even consider himself a crypto-anarchist. I think he might have been motivated more by a distrust of financial institutions and government monetary authorities and wanted to create a monetary system that didn’t have to depend on such trust. All in all, I don’t think there is much risk in this regard.
I haven’t personally made any attempts to find out who he is, nor do I have any idea how. My guess is that he’s not anyone who was previously active in the academic cryptography or cypherpunks communities, because otherwise he probably would have been identified by now based on his writing and coding styles.
I think at this point it doesn’t matter too much, except to satisfy people’s curiosity.
No, because along with a number of other reasons not to patent it, the whole point of b-money was to have a money system that governments can’t control or shut down by force, so how would I be able to enforce the patent? I don’t think Satoshi would have patented his ideas either, because I think he is not motivated mainly to personally make money, but to change the world and to solve an interesting technical problem. Otherwise he would have sold at least some of his mined Bitcoins in order to spend or to diversify into other investments.
Thank you so much Wei Dai for all the answers.
You say other previously active member would have been identified base on this writing and coding style. There is exacly what Skye Grey says he/she’s doing for matching Szabo with Satoshi on the blog LikeinaMirror—he say’s he’s 99,9% sure Szabo is Satoshi. https://likeinamirror.wordpress.com/2014/03/
Dorian Nakamoto theory may have any ground?
What made you think Satoshi motivation was distrust rather than crypto-anarchy? Someone that have loose money for instance in Lehman Brothers banrupcy? It was also in 2008
Why is anonimity important to crypto community? Just to confirm, Wei Dai is a pseudonym?
Thank you again
I agree with gwern’s answers and will add a couple of my own.
No, I doubt it.
We think it’s cool because the technology falls out of our field of research.
Anonymity provides privacy and security against physical violence, and cryptographers tend to care about privacy and security.
Grey’s post is worthless. I haven’t written a rebuttal to his second, but about his first post, see http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ruluz/satoshi_nakamoto_is_probably_nick_szabo/cdr2vgu
Because he said so. Haven’t you done any background reading? (And how many private individuals could have lost money in Lehman Brothers anyway...)
Seriously?
No, it’s real.
The concerns in this space go beyond personal safety, though that isn’t an insignificant one. For safety, It doesn’t matter what one can prove because almost by definition anyone who is going to be dangerous is not behaving in an informed and rational way, consider the crazy person who was threatening Gwern. It’s also not possible to actually prove you do not own a large number of Bitcoins—the coins themselves are pseudonymous, and many people can not imagine that a person would willingly part with a large amount of money (or decline to take it in the first place).
No one knows which, if any, Bitcoins are owned by the system’s creator. There is a lot of speculation which is know to me to be bogus; e.g. identifying my coins as having belonged to the creator. So even if someone were to provably dispose of all their holdings, there will be people alleging other coins.
The bigger issue is that the Bitcoin system gains much of its unique value by being defined by software, by mechanical rule and not trust. In a sense, Bitcoin matters because its creator doesn’t. This is a hard concept for most people, and there is a constant demand by the public to identify “the person in charge”. To stand out risks being appointed Bitcoin’s central banker for life, and in doing so undermine much of what Bitcoin has accomplished.
Being a “thought leader” also produces significant demands on your time which can inhibit making meaningful accomplishments.
Finally, it would be an act which couldn’t be reversed.
That’s a fair point. There is some amount of personal risk intrinsic to being famous. In this specific case there is also certainly a political element involved which could shift the probabilities significantly.
This is also fair. I more assumed that if the most obvious large quantity were destroyed it would act to significantly dissuade rational attackers. Why not go kidnap a random early Google employee instead if you don’t have significant reason to believe the inventor’s wealth exceeds that scale? But yes, in any case, it’s not a perfect solution.
I don’t see it as a required logical consequence that Bitcoin matters because the inventor is unknown. It stands on its own merit. You don’t have to know or not know anything about the inventor to know if the system works.
I guess you’re maybe assuming there’s a risk the majority would amend the protocol rules to explicitly grant the inventor this power? They could theoretically do that without their True Name being known. Or perhaps there’s a more basic risk that people would weigh the inventor’s opinion above all and as such the inventor and protocol would be newly subject to coercion? It doesn’t seem to me like this presents a real risk to the system (although perhaps increased risk to the inventor.) I think this would assume ignorance controls a majority of the interest in the system and that it’s more fragile than it appears. Please correct as necessary. I put a few words in your mouth there for the sake of advancing discussion.
My intuition is that this may be the most significant factor from the inventor’s perspective. It is certainly a valid concern.
Obviously true. Do the risks presented outweigh the potential benefits to humanity? I don’t know but I think it’s fair to say the identity of the creator does in fact matter—but not necessarily to the continued functioning of Bitcoin.
Why do you think so?
This is interesting and something I hadn’t thought about. Now I’m more curious who Satoshi is and why he or she or they have decided to remain anonymous. Thanks! You might want to post your idea somewhere else too, like the Bitcoin reddit or forum, since probably not many people will get to read it here.
Bruce Wayne: As a man, I’m flesh and blood, I can be ignored, I can be destroyed; but as a symbol… as a symbol I can be incorruptible, I can be everlasting.
--Batman Begins