First paragraph: 3⁄10. The claim is that something was already more natural to begin with, but you need deliberate practice to unlock the thing that was already more natural. It’s not that it ‘comes more naturally’ after you practice something. What ‘felt’ natural before was actually very unnatural and hindered, but we don’t realize this until after practicing.
2nd, 3rd, 4th paragraph: 2⁄10. This mostly doesn’t seem relevant to what I’m trying to offer.
...
It’s interesting trying to watch various people try to repeat what I’m saying or respond to what I’m saying and just totally missing the target each time.
It suggests an active blind spot or a refusal to try to look straight at the main claim I’m making. I have been saying it over and over again, so I don’t think it’s on my end. Although the thing I am trying to point at is notoriously hard to point at, so there’s that.
...
Anyway the cruxy part is here, and so to pass my ITT you’d have to include this:
“It’s not a meta-process. It’s not metacognition. It’s not intelligence. It’s also not intuition or instinct. This wisdom doesn’t get better with more intelligence or more intuition. ”
“I’m more guided by a wisdom that is not based in System 1 or System 2 or any “process” whatsoever. ”
“The “one weird trick” to getting the right answers is to discard all stuck, fixed points. Discard all priors and posteriors. Discard all aliefs and beliefs. Discard worldview after worldview. Discard perspective. Discard unity. Discard separation. Discard conceptuality. Discard map, discard territory. Discard past, present, and future. Discard a sense of you. Discard a sense of world. Discard dichotomy and trichotomy. Discard vague senses of wishy-washy flip floppiness. Discard something vs nothing. Discard one vs all. Discard symbols, discard signs, discard waves, discard particles.
All of these things are Ignorance. Discard Ignorance.”
I think you are actually emphasizing this section.
It wasn’t just that I acquired different habits and got used to them. The new patterns are less effortful to maintain, better for for me, and they’re somehow clearly more correct. I had to unlearn, and now I somehow “know” less. I’m holding “less” patterning in favor of what doesn’t need anything “held onto.”
...
Through training the mind, we realize the mind naturally wishes to do good, be caring, be courageous, be steadfast, be reliable. The body is not naturally inclined to sit around eating potato chips. We can find this out just by actually feeling what it does to the body. And so neither is the mind naturally inclined to think hateful thoughts, lie to itself and others, or be fed mentally addictive substances (e.g. certain kinds of information).
It sounds like you believe, as I become more aligned with who I want to be and with goodness, this will not feel strained or effortful, but in fact I will experience less friction than I used to feel, less discomfort or unease. This is not a learned way of being but rather a process of backing out of bad and unhealthy practices.
I don’t know that it’s easy for me to describe how this feels in more phenomenological detail. I’d have to find some examples. Most of my experiences of becoming a better person have been around finding good principles that I believe in, and feeling good relying on them and seeing that they indeed do improve the world and help me avoid unethical action/behavior. It has simplified my life tremendously (mostly).
So I believe you mean that, when you find the right way of acting, it feels more natural and less friction-y than the way you were previously behaving. The primary thing I don’t understand is that I can’t tell what claim you are making about what exactly one is approaching. You keep saying all the things it isn’t without saying what it is. I am not sure if you mean “You are born well and then have lots of bad habits and unhealthy practices added to you” or if you are saying “You were not necessarily ever in the right state of mind, but approach it through careful practice, and then it will feel better/natural-er/etc”. Also you keep saying that it’s not “state of mind” or anything other noun I might use to describe it, which isn’t helpful for saying what it is.
My current guess is that you don’t think it’s any particular state, but that being a spiritually whole person is more about everything (both in the mind and in the mind’s relationship to the environment) working together well. But not sure.
Regarding
But I wish people would at least mentally try to understand what I’m saying, and so far I’m often being misinterpreted. Too much mental grasping at straws.
and
It’s interesting trying to watch various people try to repeat what I’m saying or respond to what I’m saying and just totally missing the target each time.
It suggests an active blind spot or a refusal to try to look straight at the main claim I’m making. I have been saying it over and over again, so I don’t think it’s on my end. Although the thing I am trying to point at is notoriously hard to point at, so there’s that.
I think talking about phenomenology is hard and subtle and the fact you have failed to have people hear you as you use metaphor and poetry doesn’t mean you should talk down to me as though you are a wise teacher and I am a particularly dense student.
I am saying things in a direct and more or less literal manner. Or at least I’m trying to.
I did use a metaphor. I am not using “poetry”? When I say “Discard Ignorance” I mean that as literally as possible. I think it’s somewhat incorrect to call what I’m saying phenomenology. That makes it sound purely subjective.
Am I talking down to you? I did not read it that way. Sorry it comes across that way. I am attempting to be very direct and blunt because I think that’s more respectful, and it’s how I talk.
I propose we wrap this particular thread up for now (with another reply from you as you wish).
I will say that for this bit
Because there’s a big assumption that biology is more or less what’s at the bottom of this human-stack.
Well it isn’t.
There isn’t a “the bottom.”
It’s like a banana tree.
When you peel everything away, what is actually left?
Well it turns out if you were able to PEEL SOMETHING AWAY, it wasn’t the Truth of You. So discard it. And you keep going.
And that’s the path.
Being asked “So what’s the answer? What’s the path?” feels more like answering a riddle than being asked “The capital city of England is London. Please repeat back to me the capital city of England?”.
Direct speech is clear and unambiguous. Direct speech is like “Please can you close the door?” and indirect speech is like “Oh I guess it’s chilly in here” or “Perhaps we should get people’s temperature preferences”, which may be a sincere attempt to communicate that you want the door closed but isn’t direct. What you wrote was not especially unambiguous or non-metaphorical. I think it’s a sincere attempt at communication but it’s not direct. Being asked to just answer “can anyone repeat back what I’m saying without adding or subtracting anything?” seems hard when you wrote in a rather metaphorical and roundabout way.
First paragraph: 3⁄10. The claim is that something was already more natural to begin with, but you need deliberate practice to unlock the thing that was already more natural. It’s not that it ‘comes more naturally’ after you practice something. What ‘felt’ natural before was actually very unnatural and hindered, but we don’t realize this until after practicing.
2nd, 3rd, 4th paragraph: 2⁄10. This mostly doesn’t seem relevant to what I’m trying to offer.
...
It’s interesting trying to watch various people try to repeat what I’m saying or respond to what I’m saying and just totally missing the target each time.
It suggests an active blind spot or a refusal to try to look straight at the main claim I’m making. I have been saying it over and over again, so I don’t think it’s on my end. Although the thing I am trying to point at is notoriously hard to point at, so there’s that.
...
Anyway the cruxy part is here, and so to pass my ITT you’d have to include this:
“It’s not a meta-process. It’s not metacognition. It’s not intelligence. It’s also not intuition or instinct. This wisdom doesn’t get better with more intelligence or more intuition. ”
“I’m more guided by a wisdom that is not based in System 1 or System 2 or any “process” whatsoever. ”
“The “one weird trick” to getting the right answers is to discard all stuck, fixed points. Discard all priors and posteriors. Discard all aliefs and beliefs. Discard worldview after worldview. Discard perspective. Discard unity. Discard separation. Discard conceptuality. Discard map, discard territory. Discard past, present, and future. Discard a sense of you. Discard a sense of world. Discard dichotomy and trichotomy. Discard vague senses of wishy-washy flip floppiness. Discard something vs nothing. Discard one vs all. Discard symbols, discard signs, discard waves, discard particles.
All of these things are Ignorance. Discard Ignorance.”
Sure, I can try again during my lunch break.
I think you are actually emphasizing this section.
It sounds like you believe, as I become more aligned with who I want to be and with goodness, this will not feel strained or effortful, but in fact I will experience less friction than I used to feel, less discomfort or unease. This is not a learned way of being but rather a process of backing out of bad and unhealthy practices.
I don’t know that it’s easy for me to describe how this feels in more phenomenological detail. I’d have to find some examples. Most of my experiences of becoming a better person have been around finding good principles that I believe in, and feeling good relying on them and seeing that they indeed do improve the world and help me avoid unethical action/behavior. It has simplified my life tremendously (mostly).
So I believe you mean that, when you find the right way of acting, it feels more natural and less friction-y than the way you were previously behaving. The primary thing I don’t understand is that I can’t tell what claim you are making about what exactly one is approaching. You keep saying all the things it isn’t without saying what it is. I am not sure if you mean “You are born well and then have lots of bad habits and unhealthy practices added to you” or if you are saying “You were not necessarily ever in the right state of mind, but approach it through careful practice, and then it will feel better/natural-er/etc”. Also you keep saying that it’s not “state of mind” or anything other noun I might use to describe it, which isn’t helpful for saying what it is.
My current guess is that you don’t think it’s any particular state, but that being a spiritually whole person is more about everything (both in the mind and in the mind’s relationship to the environment) working together well. But not sure.
Regarding
and
I think talking about phenomenology is hard and subtle and the fact you have failed to have people hear you as you use metaphor and poetry doesn’t mean you should talk down to me as though you are a wise teacher and I am a particularly dense student.
I am saying things in a direct and more or less literal manner. Or at least I’m trying to.
I did use a metaphor. I am not using “poetry”? When I say “Discard Ignorance” I mean that as literally as possible. I think it’s somewhat incorrect to call what I’m saying phenomenology. That makes it sound purely subjective.
Am I talking down to you? I did not read it that way. Sorry it comes across that way. I am attempting to be very direct and blunt because I think that’s more respectful, and it’s how I talk.
I propose we wrap this particular thread up for now (with another reply from you as you wish).
I will say that for this bit
Being asked “So what’s the answer? What’s the path?” feels more like answering a riddle than being asked “The capital city of England is London. Please repeat back to me the capital city of England?”.
Direct speech is clear and unambiguous. Direct speech is like “Please can you close the door?” and indirect speech is like “Oh I guess it’s chilly in here” or “Perhaps we should get people’s temperature preferences”, which may be a sincere attempt to communicate that you want the door closed but isn’t direct. What you wrote was not especially unambiguous or non-metaphorical. I think it’s a sincere attempt at communication but it’s not direct. Being asked to just answer “can anyone repeat back what I’m saying without adding or subtracting anything?” seems hard when you wrote in a rather metaphorical and roundabout way.