Wouldn’t it make just as much sense to downvote expressions of any emotional reaction whatsoever? For example, if someone tells you that they love your idea, will you downvote them?
Expressions of offense—of the type being discussed here—are different in that they constitute the imposition of a social penalty on a person for expressing an idea. This—and not emotional expression per se—is what should be discouraged.
(Although unfortunately there are some people here who would downvote comments that express positive emotions, on the grounds that they are “noise”.)
Expressing offence causes emotional harm. Expressing appreciation causes emotional benefit. Neither of those increases the actual informational content of a discussion but the second option still makes the world a slightly better place.
This discussion is becoming more and more bizarre. We started with the topic of giving or causing offense and apparently came to the consensus that in our quest for the truth, we really shouldn’t worry to much about whether we give offense—the truth is just too important.
Now we are asked not to express the fact that we have been offended, because this truth is just too painful—it causes emotional harm. Does anyone else think that this is positively insane?
Now we are asked not to express the fact that we have been offended, because this truth is just too painful—it causes emotional harm. Does anyone else think that this is positively insane?
I have no fundamental objection to people expressing the fact that they have been offended. What I object to is the use of offense as a means to silence dissenting opinions or discussion. Religions use this tactic all the time and it disgusts me. I disagree with the ‘emotional harm’ argument except to the extent that it is the mechanism by which dissent is suppressed.
What I object to is the use of offense as a means to silence dissenting opinions or discussion.
Fine. I join you in your objection. As a comment on the current sorry state of American political discourse, it is right on.
But, do you really think it is a problem here on LW? Seriously? What I see here being used to silence people are objections to style or tone of argument. Which is certainly not completely inappropriate in a forum dedicated to rationality.
But consider. Person A offers an arational and emotional argument. Person A is roundly criticized and downvoted for this. Has person A’s dissenting opinion been “silenced”? Of course not. Person A is free to make his/her point in a more rational style.
Now let’s look at Person B who offers a speculation which person C finds offensive.
Person C expresses offense. Has person B been silenced? Of course not. Person B is free to go on to back up the speculation with data, argument, and even evolutionary psychology. I just cannot see person C’s complaints as “the mechanism by which dissent is suppressed.”
But, do you really think it is a problem here on LW? Seriously?
LW is about as good as it gets in this regard and I’d very much like to keep it that way, hence my concern when I see anything that looks to me like movement in the wrong direction.
Does anyone else think that this is positively insane?
Who specifically is it that you think holds an insane conjunction of beliefs? You seem to be treating several different commenters as if they were one person. (Cf. my other comment.)
Experiencing offense silently causes emotional harm as well; depending upon the situation, expression of that experience may help to alleviate the cause of the problem.
To put it another way: if something heavy lands on my foot and I need help lifting it off, it may cause some sympathetic pain and suffering in other people if I yell out loudly… but assuming the people around aren’t jerks, yelling out will lead in the longer term to less total pain than suffering in silence.
True, but it’s possible to yell without blaming one of the people around from dropping it on your foot. And if you can tell that one of them did it, you might be able to yell for help without accusing that person of dropping it intentionally.
Expressing offense might also cause emotional benefit
Possibly. But in most cases it wouldn’t. And I simply wanted to point out a significant difference between two things that, according to your argument, should be equated.
Sidenote: if a native speaker of English wants to make the world a slightly better place, then please tell me whether finishing the sentence with “that you argued should be equated” would make sense?
Possibly. But in most cases it will be like I said. Which is by no means a watertight argument in defense of mattnewport’s position but I wasn’t trying to provide that. I just pointed out an obvious, significant difference between things that, according to your argument, should be treated equally.
Wouldn’t it make just as much sense to downvote expressions of any emotional reaction whatsoever? For example, if someone tells you that they love your idea, will you downvote them?
Expressions of offense—of the type being discussed here—are different in that they constitute the imposition of a social penalty on a person for expressing an idea. This—and not emotional expression per se—is what should be discouraged.
(Although unfortunately there are some people here who would downvote comments that express positive emotions, on the grounds that they are “noise”.)
Expressing offence causes emotional harm. Expressing appreciation causes emotional benefit. Neither of those increases the actual informational content of a discussion but the second option still makes the world a slightly better place.
This discussion is becoming more and more bizarre. We started with the topic of giving or causing offense and apparently came to the consensus that in our quest for the truth, we really shouldn’t worry to much about whether we give offense—the truth is just too important.
Now we are asked not to express the fact that we have been offended, because this truth is just too painful—it causes emotional harm. Does anyone else think that this is positively insane?
I have no fundamental objection to people expressing the fact that they have been offended. What I object to is the use of offense as a means to silence dissenting opinions or discussion. Religions use this tactic all the time and it disgusts me. I disagree with the ‘emotional harm’ argument except to the extent that it is the mechanism by which dissent is suppressed.
Fine. I join you in your objection. As a comment on the current sorry state of American political discourse, it is right on.
But, do you really think it is a problem here on LW? Seriously? What I see here being used to silence people are objections to style or tone of argument. Which is certainly not completely inappropriate in a forum dedicated to rationality.
But consider. Person A offers an arational and emotional argument. Person A is roundly criticized and downvoted for this. Has person A’s dissenting opinion been “silenced”? Of course not. Person A is free to make his/her point in a more rational style.
Now let’s look at Person B who offers a speculation which person C finds offensive. Person C expresses offense. Has person B been silenced? Of course not. Person B is free to go on to back up the speculation with data, argument, and even evolutionary psychology. I just cannot see person C’s complaints as “the mechanism by which dissent is suppressed.”
LW is about as good as it gets in this regard and I’d very much like to keep it that way, hence my concern when I see anything that looks to me like movement in the wrong direction.
Fair enough.
Downvoted for expressing your offense.
Upvoted for being witty. Downvoted again for missing the point.
Who specifically is it that you think holds an insane conjunction of beliefs? You seem to be treating several different commenters as if they were one person. (Cf. my other comment.)
I was responding to Gabriel.
Why do you suggest that?
Experiencing offense silently causes emotional harm as well; depending upon the situation, expression of that experience may help to alleviate the cause of the problem.
To put it another way: if something heavy lands on my foot and I need help lifting it off, it may cause some sympathetic pain and suffering in other people if I yell out loudly… but assuming the people around aren’t jerks, yelling out will lead in the longer term to less total pain than suffering in silence.
True, but it’s possible to yell without blaming one of the people around from dropping it on your foot. And if you can tell that one of them did it, you might be able to yell for help without accusing that person of dropping it intentionally.
Expressing offense might also cause emotional benefit, if the source of offense is easily remedied, and the expression avoids unnecessary shaming.
Possibly. But in most cases it wouldn’t. And I simply wanted to point out a significant difference between two things that, according to your argument, should be equated.
Sidenote: if a native speaker of English wants to make the world a slightly better place, then please tell me whether finishing the sentence with “that you argued should be equated” would make sense?
It makes sense, but it’s more confusing than the way you wrote it above.
Possibly. But in most cases it will be like I said. Which is by no means a watertight argument in defense of mattnewport’s position but I wasn’t trying to provide that. I just pointed out an obvious, significant difference between things that, according to your argument, should be treated equally.