Z.M. Davis: These days I generally try not to identify as a Transhumanist, Humanist, or even atheist except to people who I have reason to believe will react positively. I don’t have the character to identify as Christian to those who will react positively to that, but maybe someday. Honestly, well, on Facebook I’m “Political Views”, “Other”, “Religion” “Philosopher and Bayesian”. As the latter, any group identity that supposedly rests on belief is out, as I explicitly represent, when unpacked precisely, all my beliefs as probabilistic, even the normative ones. Ordinary discussion really doesn’t consistently do this. The closest word, and it isn’t close, is “Skeptic”. There’s no simple translation between “I believe X and I believe that my ignorance can be quantified” and anything thinkable to someone who doesn’t believe that ignorance can be quantified. I really don’t think that I’m engaged in moral intimidation towards Angel at all, but I don’t think you are being petty. As I mentioned, I think that its a serious concern if people are and is worth bringing up if there is a reason to suspect it. There’s a difference between saying “It seems to me that you are probably a pretty bad person so I am not going to trust you” and “you should stop thinking those thoughts because having those thoughts means that you are a bad person”. Ironically, my guess is that with the right audience (probably a VERY small audience, I don’t mean academic feminists in general) some talk about “privilege” and “dominance” would work well for clarifying this point, but with most audiences it would just add to any confusion.
frelkins: thanks for the references.
Minor note: The most appealing characters in The Odyssey are female, namely Athena and Penelope.
Laura: Men and women have the same average IQ and at a best guess the same ‘g’ (itself an astounding scientific finding given how different they are neuroanatomicaly, but well validated), but differences in specific abilities are so large that people with opposite gender typical relative verbal and visuo-spatial abilities are considered learning disabled (Unless they were Jewish, oddly, as massively superior verbal to visuo-spatial abilities are common among Jews and thus not considered abnormal). Is it terrible to belong to groups that have known strengths and weaknesses or for the weaknesses to be invoked as an explanation of an observed error? Why be upset by explaining one observation in terms of another established one unless arguments are soldiers? Since I’m Jewish I sometimes explain my visuo-spatial errors in the same group terms. Likewise, I imagine that you would not feel any shame about not being able to lift something that a man would be able to lift easily, and that in Africa, where women know how to carry things on their heads in a mechanically efficient manner that depends on broader hips, men probably don’t feel shame at not being able to carry something that women can carry easily. I can tell you for sure that in Kazakhstan men aren’t ashamed of lacking the basic skills to take care of themselves. So, are only members of a group ever allowed to bring attention to that group having any weaknesses at all, even if it is generally acknowledged that the group in question also has strengths? One problem with this approach to gender relations is that without the framework of group specific strengths people are liable to interpret failures as individual general weaknesses and to underestimate the general abilities of individual members of the opposite gender in the name of protecting the honor of the opposite gender. That seems worse to me.
Most IQ tests are constructed so that there are no overall score differences between females and males
It seems “Men and women have the same average IQ” is a statement that gives information about how IQ tests are constructed, not about (the absence of) actual intelligence differences between man and woman.
As the latter, any group identity that supposedly rests on belief is out, as I explicitly represent, when unpacked precisely, all my beliefs as probabilistic,
I wonder what probability you assign to that belief.
even the normative ones
How?
Men and women have the same average IQ and at a best guess the same ‘g’ (itself an astounding scientific finding given how different they are neuroanatomicaly, but well validated),
It could be that IQ tests are calibrated to yield that result.
(Unless they were Jewish, oddly, as massively superior verbal to visuo-spatial abilities are common among Jews and thus not considered abnormal).
Men and women have the same average IQ and at a best guess the same ‘g’ (itself an astounding scientific finding given how different they are neuroanatomicaly, but well validated), but differences in specific abilities are so large that people with opposite gender typical relative verbal and visuo-spatial abilities are considered learning disabled (Unless they were Jewish, oddly, as massively superior verbal to visuo-spatial abilities are common among Jews and thus not considered abnormal).
So, the “men don’t ask for directions, women don’t use maps” thing is not just some arbitrary cultural thing akin to trousers vs skirts? Huh. (OTOH it is one of the very few gender stereotypes that for some reason I don’t fully understand some part of my brain takes as normative, and I feel some reluctance to ask for directions that I can’t fully explain and I don’t want.)
are considered learning disabled
I can’t remember ever noticing that—and I’m not Jewish.
Z.M. Davis: These days I generally try not to identify as a Transhumanist, Humanist, or even atheist except to people who I have reason to believe will react positively. I don’t have the character to identify as Christian to those who will react positively to that, but maybe someday. Honestly, well, on Facebook I’m “Political Views”, “Other”, “Religion” “Philosopher and Bayesian”. As the latter, any group identity that supposedly rests on belief is out, as I explicitly represent, when unpacked precisely, all my beliefs as probabilistic, even the normative ones. Ordinary discussion really doesn’t consistently do this. The closest word, and it isn’t close, is “Skeptic”. There’s no simple translation between “I believe X and I believe that my ignorance can be quantified” and anything thinkable to someone who doesn’t believe that ignorance can be quantified. I really don’t think that I’m engaged in moral intimidation towards Angel at all, but I don’t think you are being petty. As I mentioned, I think that its a serious concern if people are and is worth bringing up if there is a reason to suspect it. There’s a difference between saying “It seems to me that you are probably a pretty bad person so I am not going to trust you” and “you should stop thinking those thoughts because having those thoughts means that you are a bad person”. Ironically, my guess is that with the right audience (probably a VERY small audience, I don’t mean academic feminists in general) some talk about “privilege” and “dominance” would work well for clarifying this point, but with most audiences it would just add to any confusion.
frelkins: thanks for the references.
Minor note: The most appealing characters in The Odyssey are female, namely Athena and Penelope.
Laura: Men and women have the same average IQ and at a best guess the same ‘g’ (itself an astounding scientific finding given how different they are neuroanatomicaly, but well validated), but differences in specific abilities are so large that people with opposite gender typical relative verbal and visuo-spatial abilities are considered learning disabled (Unless they were Jewish, oddly, as massively superior verbal to visuo-spatial abilities are common among Jews and thus not considered abnormal). Is it terrible to belong to groups that have known strengths and weaknesses or for the weaknesses to be invoked as an explanation of an observed error? Why be upset by explaining one observation in terms of another established one unless arguments are soldiers? Since I’m Jewish I sometimes explain my visuo-spatial errors in the same group terms. Likewise, I imagine that you would not feel any shame about not being able to lift something that a man would be able to lift easily, and that in Africa, where women know how to carry things on their heads in a mechanically efficient manner that depends on broader hips, men probably don’t feel shame at not being able to carry something that women can carry easily. I can tell you for sure that in Kazakhstan men aren’t ashamed of lacking the basic skills to take care of themselves. So, are only members of a group ever allowed to bring attention to that group having any weaknesses at all, even if it is generally acknowledged that the group in question also has strengths? One problem with this approach to gender relations is that without the framework of group specific strengths people are liable to interpret failures as individual general weaknesses and to underestimate the general abilities of individual members of the opposite gender in the name of protecting the honor of the opposite gender. That seems worse to me.
According to wikipedia, this is true by construction :
It seems “Men and women have the same average IQ” is a statement that gives information about how IQ tests are constructed, not about (the absence of) actual intelligence differences between man and woman.
Bayesian as a religion?
I wonder what probability you assign to that belief.
How?
It could be that IQ tests are calibrated to yield that result.
references?
He himself kind-of sort-of admitted that (see the last few words in this comment).
So, the “men don’t ask for directions, women don’t use maps” thing is not just some arbitrary cultural thing akin to trousers vs skirts? Huh. (OTOH it is one of the very few gender stereotypes that for some reason I don’t fully understand some part of my brain takes as normative, and I feel some reluctance to ask for directions that I can’t fully explain and I don’t want.)
I can’t remember ever noticing that—and I’m not Jewish.