I think I’ve finally put my finger on the icky feeling I get when reading gender topics on this blog. From my point of view, many comments seem to (inadvertently?) assume that misandry and misogyny are mutually exclusive. I don’t think they are. Both men and women have deeply-rooted flaws, worthy of criticism from anyone attempting self-improvement. My culture (American nerd) contains strong anti-male and anti-female elements, some of which I think are totally irrational.
As an educated, upper-class geek, my own personal experience is that misandry is currently ahead of misogyny by a good margin, but I realize this probably isn’t true of all subcultures. Also, since I’ve only been male, I cannot see things from the perspective of a female.
If I borrow from another topic and say something like “women are stupid when it comes to dating, always going out with the jerks instead of nice guys like me” (which I don’t believe, by the way), this doesn’t indicate that I feel male dating habits are more rational. The problems and irrationalities of modern male attraction are so much more obvious than female attraction they have been made fun of for centuries.
Historically, we’re told gender-roles (formal and informal) have primarily been anti-female. I’m sure thats true, but they’ve also been anti-male. Women weren’t drafted to fight in WWI or WWII (not that I’d want them to be!), and the enforced role of the wife and house-maker isn’t necessarily worse than the father’s role as the sole breadwinner.
Laura, I don’t think being called “one of the guys” is in any way an insult to women (provided it comes from men; each gender seems to have an inflated view of itself relative to the other). Men have positive qualities lacking in women, and vise-versa; if you combine the best of both worlds, good for you. Calling a guy “sensitive” isn’t an insult when it comes from women, is it?
The problems and irrationalities of modern male attraction are so much more obvious than female attraction they have been made fun of for centuries.
I think that, to a member of group X, the problems and complaints about members of group X will always seem to stand out as more obvious in the prevailing culture. Thus the prevalance of men and women both who dismiss the trials of the other side.
Calling a guy “sensitive” isn’t an insult when it comes from women, is it?
A more precise parallel would be calling a man “girly,” which is much more often used pejoratively than “sensitive.” An even more precise one would be being told that a group of women sees you as “one of the girls” or “like a good girlfriend.” Is that an insult? Not as intended. But the selection of that description discounts the possibility than a man can be a close friend to a woman and still be fully a man; it separates “male” and “sensitive.” When a woman seems to fit in so well in a workplace of male engineers that she’s called “one of the guys,” it suggests that a fully feminine woman could not do so; it separates “woman” and “engineer.”
Yes, which is why latter can be more effectively used as a ‘backhanded complement’ than girly.
Yup. So if you want to take it back the other way, to praise a woman for having traits traditionally considered masculine, it would be more effective to call her e.g. “strong” than “manly.”
I think I’ve finally put my finger on the icky feeling I get when reading gender topics on this blog. From my point of view, many comments seem to (inadvertently?) assume that misandry and misogyny are mutually exclusive. I don’t think they are. Both men and women have deeply-rooted flaws, worthy of criticism from anyone attempting self-improvement. My culture (American nerd) contains strong anti-male and anti-female elements, some of which I think are totally irrational.
As an educated, upper-class geek, my own personal experience is that misandry is currently ahead of misogyny by a good margin, but I realize this probably isn’t true of all subcultures. Also, since I’ve only been male, I cannot see things from the perspective of a female.
If I borrow from another topic and say something like “women are stupid when it comes to dating, always going out with the jerks instead of nice guys like me” (which I don’t believe, by the way), this doesn’t indicate that I feel male dating habits are more rational. The problems and irrationalities of modern male attraction are so much more obvious than female attraction they have been made fun of for centuries.
Historically, we’re told gender-roles (formal and informal) have primarily been anti-female. I’m sure thats true, but they’ve also been anti-male. Women weren’t drafted to fight in WWI or WWII (not that I’d want them to be!), and the enforced role of the wife and house-maker isn’t necessarily worse than the father’s role as the sole breadwinner.
Laura, I don’t think being called “one of the guys” is in any way an insult to women (provided it comes from men; each gender seems to have an inflated view of itself relative to the other). Men have positive qualities lacking in women, and vise-versa; if you combine the best of both worlds, good for you. Calling a guy “sensitive” isn’t an insult when it comes from women, is it?
I think that, to a member of group X, the problems and complaints about members of group X will always seem to stand out as more obvious in the prevailing culture. Thus the prevalance of men and women both who dismiss the trials of the other side.
A more precise parallel would be calling a man “girly,” which is much more often used pejoratively than “sensitive.” An even more precise one would be being told that a group of women sees you as “one of the girls” or “like a good girlfriend.” Is that an insult? Not as intended. But the selection of that description discounts the possibility than a man can be a close friend to a woman and still be fully a man; it separates “male” and “sensitive.” When a woman seems to fit in so well in a workplace of male engineers that she’s called “one of the guys,” it suggests that a fully feminine woman could not do so; it separates “woman” and “engineer.”
Yes, which is why latter can be more effectively used as a ‘backhanded complement’ than girly.
Yup. So if you want to take it back the other way, to praise a woman for having traits traditionally considered masculine, it would be more effective to call her e.g. “strong” than “manly.”