I deconverted in large part because of Less Wrong. Looking back at it now, I hadn’t had a strong belief since I was 18 (by which I mean, if you asked most believers what the p(god) is they’d say 100% whereas I might have said 90%) but that might just be my mind going back and fixing memories so present me thinks better of past me.
I’d be happy to do an AMA (I went from Mormon to Atheist) but a couple of the main things that convinced me were:
Seeing that other apologists could make up similar arguments to make just about anything look true (for example, other religious apologists, homeopathy, anti-vaccines, etc)
Seeing the evidence for evolution and specifically, how new information supports true things. That showed me that for true things, new information doesn’t need to be explained away, but actually supports the hypothesis. For example, with evolution discoveries such as carbon dating, the fossil record, and DNA all support it. Those same discoveries have to be explained away via apologetics for religions.
Bayesian thinking. I have an econ background so kind of did this informally but the emphasis from less wrong that once you see evidence against you need to actively lower your probability a bit really helped me. Before I’d done what EY pointed out where you take all of your evidence for and stacked that against this one evidence against and then when the next evidence against comes along you take all your evidence for and stack it against that one evidence, etc.
The value that I want to believe what is true. I had this before but wasn’t as proactive about it.
Before I felt like my belief system was logical and fit the evidence and if someone didn’t believe it was because they hadn’t looked at the evidence and fairly considered it. Seeing people look at the evidence and then cogently explain why they still didn’t believe gave me a “I notice I’m confused” moment.\
• Seeing that other apologists could make up similar arguments to make just about anything look true (for example, other religious apologists, homeopathy, anti-vaccines, etc)
I see a couple things similar to this that were probably the biggest factors in my deconversion now that I look back.
Within Christianity, over a long period of time, they are so sure about so many views that end up being demonstrably wrong.
They are sure that the Earth is the center of the universe. And when that debate is finally settled, they are just as sure that evolution is false…
And then, in time, when that debate is just as settled (in the public) as heliocentrism, they’ll retreat, and then dig in and try to argue for the next line of nonsense for X decades/centuries.
Something similar also occurs in all the different sects of Christianity at any given time. They are often each equally convinced of mutually exclusive claims. One sect is sure speaking in tongues is from God, one is sure it is from the Devil, one is sure it only existed—but only in the first century, one is sure it is nonsense (but they still accept all the other magical stuff in the Bible).
The interesting observation (and the thing that helped me de-convert) is that among all these differing beliefs, Christians of all stripes from all times use basically the same apologetic tactics and seem to be each convinced that they are right because of some sophisticated-sounding hermeneutic they use to “rightly interpret the Bible”.
Using the Bible, you could argue for almost any position you’d like and make it look true as long as you find a way to tie it to “Scripture”.
Reminds me of a quote from an old LW post… “If you are equally good at explaining any outcome, you have zero knowledge.”
I don’t think it’s entirely fair to blame e.g. geocentrist cosmology on Christianity qua religion. Those debates happened at a time when the Church was, or recently had been, the primary European vector of literacy and philosophy: basically the only intellectual game in town. Challenges to its natural philosophy had the character of attacks on a scientific establishment, or the closest thing available at the time, as much as a religious one. They did draw on the language and norms of religion in their responses, but you can hardly condemn a bunch of clergy for that.
I deconverted in large part because of Less Wrong. Looking back at it now, I hadn’t had a strong belief since I was 18 (by which I mean, if you asked most believers what the p(god) is they’d say 100% whereas I might have said 90%) but that might just be my mind going back and fixing memories so present me thinks better of past me.
I’d be happy to do an AMA (I went from Mormon to Atheist) but a couple of the main things that convinced me were:
Seeing that other apologists could make up similar arguments to make just about anything look true (for example, other religious apologists, homeopathy, anti-vaccines, etc)
Seeing the evidence for evolution and specifically, how new information supports true things. That showed me that for true things, new information doesn’t need to be explained away, but actually supports the hypothesis. For example, with evolution discoveries such as carbon dating, the fossil record, and DNA all support it. Those same discoveries have to be explained away via apologetics for religions.
Bayesian thinking. I have an econ background so kind of did this informally but the emphasis from less wrong that once you see evidence against you need to actively lower your probability a bit really helped me. Before I’d done what EY pointed out where you take all of your evidence for and stacked that against this one evidence against and then when the next evidence against comes along you take all your evidence for and stack it against that one evidence, etc.
The value that I want to believe what is true. I had this before but wasn’t as proactive about it.
Before I felt like my belief system was logical and fit the evidence and if someone didn’t believe it was because they hadn’t looked at the evidence and fairly considered it. Seeing people look at the evidence and then cogently explain why they still didn’t believe gave me a “I notice I’m confused” moment.\
etc.
I see a couple things similar to this that were probably the biggest factors in my deconversion now that I look back.
Within Christianity, over a long period of time, they are so sure about so many views that end up being demonstrably wrong.
They are sure that the Earth is the center of the universe. And when that debate is finally settled, they are just as sure that evolution is false…
And then, in time, when that debate is just as settled (in the public) as heliocentrism, they’ll retreat, and then dig in and try to argue for the next line of nonsense for X decades/centuries.
Something similar also occurs in all the different sects of Christianity at any given time. They are often each equally convinced of mutually exclusive claims. One sect is sure speaking in tongues is from God, one is sure it is from the Devil, one is sure it only existed—but only in the first century, one is sure it is nonsense (but they still accept all the other magical stuff in the Bible).
The interesting observation (and the thing that helped me de-convert) is that among all these differing beliefs, Christians of all stripes from all times use basically the same apologetic tactics and seem to be each convinced that they are right because of some sophisticated-sounding hermeneutic they use to “rightly interpret the Bible”.
Using the Bible, you could argue for almost any position you’d like and make it look true as long as you find a way to tie it to “Scripture”.
Reminds me of a quote from an old LW post… “If you are equally good at explaining any outcome, you have zero knowledge.”
I don’t think it’s entirely fair to blame e.g. geocentrist cosmology on Christianity qua religion. Those debates happened at a time when the Church was, or recently had been, the primary European vector of literacy and philosophy: basically the only intellectual game in town. Challenges to its natural philosophy had the character of attacks on a scientific establishment, or the closest thing available at the time, as much as a religious one. They did draw on the language and norms of religion in their responses, but you can hardly condemn a bunch of clergy for that.
Creationism’s fair game, though.