As an example of a ‘directly opposing view’, I think the world would probably be better without this comment’s author.
That’s a death threat right there, for holding and acting on a directly opposing view (to veganism). So I was not rhetorically exaggerating. Oh, you wouldn’t be so impolite as to do the deed yourself, but, nudge nudge, wouldn’t it be better if everyone of like mind to myself somehow just … didn’t exist? We could all have paradise, if it wasn’t for them! Of course we can’t exterminate them, that’s what nazis do. But we can daydream a world where all the bad people somehow don’t exist any more. Out of such daydreams are nightmares born.
I guess most but not all people stating they’re indifferent to and cause non-human suffering now would reproach the view and behavior eventually, and that relative to future beings who have augmented their thinking ability and lived for thousands of years, all current beings are like children, some hurting others very badly in confusion.
That places you also as one of those children.
ETA: “If only … then we would all live happily ever after” is a child’s fantasy, and of a good many adults. But there is no happily ever after, just a different life to lead, perhaps even a better one. AGI will not change this.
I think there might be some double standard going on here.
You seem to not care much about animal well-being, and @quila evidently does, so would it not be fair from Quila’s perspective to not care much about your well-being? And if Quila doesn’t care about your well-being, then he might think that had you not existed, the world (in a utilitarian sense) would be better.
Quila can similarly say “I don’t care for lives of people who are actively destroying something that I value a lot
(It’s not actually the case that I don’t value their well-being; I don’t want them to suffer and if they were tortured, imagining that would make me sad; I’d prefer beings who don’t care about some subset of other beings / are value-orthogonal to just be prevented from hurting them. I just think Richard, in the current world, probably causes more tragedy, based on the comment, so yes I think the current world would be better if it did not have any such people.)
Agreed about the double standard part, that’s something I was hoping to highlight.
There is also the issue of clarity, I am not sure if Richard has a moderate position that sounds like a very extreme position due to the framing or if he genuinely shares this extreme position.
I do think that animals, the larger ones at least, can suffer. But I don’t much care.
Does this mean a more moderate take of “I don’t care enough to take any actions, because I don’t believe that I am personally causing much suffering to animals” or a very radical take of “I would rather take $10 than substantially improve the well-being of all animals”?
What seems radical depends on where one stands. We each of us stand on our own beliefs, and the further away one looks, the more the beliefs over there differ from one’s own. Look sufficiently far and everything you see in the distance will seem extreme and radical. Hence the fallacy that truth lies between extremes, instead of recognising the tautology that one’s own beliefs always lie between those that are extremely different.
Let me put my attitudes in practical terms: I don’t kick dogs, but I have destroyed a wasp’s nest in my garage, and I don’t donate to animal charities. (I don’t donate to many other charities either, but there have been a few.) Let those who think saving the shrimps is worthwhile do so, but I do not travel on that path
Let me put my attitudes in practical terms: I don’t kick dogs, but I have destroyed a wasp’s nest in my garage, and I don’t donate to animal charities. (I don’t donate to many other charities either, but there have been a few.) Let those who think saving the shrimps is worthwhile do so, but I do not travel on that path
This is what I expected. Your take when put in these terms seems pretty moderate. Whereas, when I read your original comment, this take (which presumably stayed the same) seemed very extreme.
In other words, my personal beliefs haven’t changed a single bit and yet my perception of your beliefs changed a lot. I can only imagine that your original comment has been so strongly disagree-voted because of the framing.
Me:
quila:
That’s a death threat right there, for holding and acting on a directly opposing view (to veganism). So I was not rhetorically exaggerating. Oh, you wouldn’t be so impolite as to do the deed yourself, but, nudge nudge, wouldn’t it be better if everyone of like mind to myself somehow just … didn’t exist? We could all have paradise, if it wasn’t for them! Of course we can’t exterminate them, that’s what nazis do. But we can daydream a world where all the bad people somehow don’t exist any more. Out of such daydreams are nightmares born.
That places you also as one of those children.
ETA: “If only … then we would all live happily ever after” is a child’s fantasy, and of a good many adults. But there is no happily ever after, just a different life to lead, perhaps even a better one. AGI will not change this.
I think there might be some double standard going on here.
You seem to not care much about animal well-being, and @quila evidently does, so would it not be fair from Quila’s perspective to not care much about your well-being? And if Quila doesn’t care about your well-being, then he might think that had you not existed, the world (in a utilitarian sense) would be better.
Quila can similarly say “I don’t care for lives of people who are actively destroying something that I value a lot
Bring on the death threats!”
(It’s not actually the case that I don’t value their well-being; I don’t want them to suffer and if they were tortured, imagining that would make me sad; I’d prefer beings who don’t care about some subset of other beings / are value-orthogonal to just be prevented from hurting them. I just think Richard, in the current world, probably causes more tragedy, based on the comment, so yes I think the current world would be better if it did not have any such people.)
Agreed about the double standard part, that’s something I was hoping to highlight.
Agreed!
There is also the issue of clarity, I am not sure if Richard has a moderate position that sounds like a very extreme position due to the framing or if he genuinely shares this extreme position.
Does this mean a more moderate take of “I don’t care enough to take any actions, because I don’t believe that I am personally causing much suffering to animals” or a very radical take of “I would rather take $10 than substantially improve the well-being of all animals”?
What seems radical depends on where one stands. We each of us stand on our own beliefs, and the further away one looks, the more the beliefs over there differ from one’s own. Look sufficiently far and everything you see in the distance will seem extreme and radical. Hence the fallacy that truth lies between extremes, instead of recognising the tautology that one’s own beliefs always lie between those that are extremely different.
Let me put my attitudes in practical terms: I don’t kick dogs, but I have destroyed a wasp’s nest in my garage, and I don’t donate to animal charities. (I don’t donate to many other charities either, but there have been a few.) Let those who think saving the shrimps is worthwhile do so, but I do not travel on that path
This is what I expected. Your take when put in these terms seems pretty moderate. Whereas, when I read your original comment, this take (which presumably stayed the same) seemed very extreme.
In other words, my personal beliefs haven’t changed a single bit and yet my perception of your beliefs changed a lot. I can only imagine that your original comment has been so strongly disagree-voted because of the framing.
I have no daydreams about quila, and others of like mind, not existing. Not even about Ziz.
I think that, perhaps, after reading this clarifying comment from you, @quila would change his perception of your position.