@Thomblake sorry about the message thing. Im still getting used to how this site works..
You substantiate analogies with proof. Basically im saying that your analogies don’t hold water perhaps i’m using confusing vernacular.
Let me say one thing before moving on. I hate debating just to debate, for me when i involve myself in a debate it is to gain more insight. So i am totally open to your point of view if it sheds some light on this subject, the bottom line is if someone has a solid angle that i’m missing than i welcome it.
Ok that being said. it sounds like your actually mostly agreeing with me.
You do however trail off with more questions. Like
“If the things we perceive as “choices” are “not really choices”, then what is really a choice? What do we mean by “choice”?
The problem i have is that if you hold a firm position on compatibilism then you should be able to explain it to a laymen by using real proof.
My question to you is how is proof that our “will” is not really controlled by us as ideal conscious agents irrelevant?
It’s absolutely relevant.
“free will” then becomes some untestable enity that is open to all kinds of conjecture and speculation. Reason and philosophy but they can only go so far when answering real life questions. So i stack up the data the best i can and make an intelligent decision based on those facts and my own empirical life evidence that i have lived through, but i will stay out of personalizing the problem.
Please just show me a shred of evidence, supporting the fact that we have real control over our subconscious minds in order to make choices freely.
Please just show me a shred of evidence, supporting the fact that we have real control over our subconscious minds in order to make choices freely.
Under your definition of free will, then what observations, if true, would be evidence for its existence? That is, what would free will (as you understand it) actually imply about empirical reality, and what would its absence imply?
Any shown tangible research that an agent can manipulate and control with little effort their subconscious mind.
The presence of, would imply a host of things from complete agent responsibility in all areas of life.
The absence of it would not only imply severed liability but also complete meaninglessness.
Most branches of existential philosophy solve meaninglessness by stating one has control over their choices and so creating meaning, If one is stripped of that control than meaninglessness truly abounds.
Any shown tangible research that an agent can manipulate and control with little effort their subconscious mind.
It’s that “little effort” part that makes this an entirely different question. I don’t use the term myself but “Free Will” is not always used to imply that things are easy.
The reason i said “little effort” is to clarify that one could possibly with much concentration have an effect on the subconscious, However the kind of effect im concerned with is the act of everyday choices that happen in nano seconds. I would welcome some data on “much effort” effects as well.
I understand what you are trying to do, and suspect I even approximately agree with you regarding predictions about just how relevant our conscious thought is to our decision making. I just note that this is a different question to the one you were arguing against.
I would welcome some data on “much effort” effects as well.
People sign themselves up for rehab. Occasionally it works.
@Thomblake sorry about the message thing. Im still getting used to how this site works..
You substantiate analogies with proof. Basically im saying that your analogies don’t hold water perhaps i’m using confusing vernacular.
Let me say one thing before moving on. I hate debating just to debate, for me when i involve myself in a debate it is to gain more insight. So i am totally open to your point of view if it sheds some light on this subject, the bottom line is if someone has a solid angle that i’m missing than i welcome it.
Ok that being said. it sounds like your actually mostly agreeing with me.
You do however trail off with more questions. Like
“If the things we perceive as “choices” are “not really choices”, then what is really a choice? What do we mean by “choice”? The problem i have is that if you hold a firm position on compatibilism then you should be able to explain it to a laymen by using real proof.
My question to you is how is proof that our “will” is not really controlled by us as ideal conscious agents irrelevant?
It’s absolutely relevant.
“free will” then becomes some untestable enity that is open to all kinds of conjecture and speculation. Reason and philosophy but they can only go so far when answering real life questions. So i stack up the data the best i can and make an intelligent decision based on those facts and my own empirical life evidence that i have lived through, but i will stay out of personalizing the problem.
Please just show me a shred of evidence, supporting the fact that we have real control over our subconscious minds in order to make choices freely.
Thanks.
Under your definition of free will, then what observations, if true, would be evidence for its existence? That is, what would free will (as you understand it) actually imply about empirical reality, and what would its absence imply?
Any shown tangible research that an agent can manipulate and control with little effort their subconscious mind.
The presence of, would imply a host of things from complete agent responsibility in all areas of life.
The absence of it would not only imply severed liability but also complete meaninglessness.
Most branches of existential philosophy solve meaninglessness by stating one has control over their choices and so creating meaning, If one is stripped of that control than meaninglessness truly abounds.
Of course that is unless one believes in God.
It’s that “little effort” part that makes this an entirely different question. I don’t use the term myself but “Free Will” is not always used to imply that things are easy.
The reason i said “little effort” is to clarify that one could possibly with much concentration have an effect on the subconscious, However the kind of effect im concerned with is the act of everyday choices that happen in nano seconds. I would welcome some data on “much effort” effects as well.
I understand what you are trying to do, and suspect I even approximately agree with you regarding predictions about just how relevant our conscious thought is to our decision making. I just note that this is a different question to the one you were arguing against.
People sign themselves up for rehab. Occasionally it works.