Talk about creating a “strawman”!? This has got to be one of the worst articles ever written on the subject of determinism vrs free will. You postulate conjecture more freely than anyone i have ever seen. There is absolutely nothing here to back up your claims, sincerely is this a joke?
You want some scientific proof for Determinism? start with a book called “The Illusion Of Conscious Will” by Wegner. Its a 400 page book that is cover to cover scientific study on the fact that we don’t really act freely. Test studies, in Labs!
You are a compatibilist.
And even though i agree the verdict is still out on Hard Determinism. Compatibilism along with free will is just straight up ludicrous. There is no real proof on either and when ever juxtapose-determinism wins over compatibilism every time by a land slide. People that are compatibilist are too smart to concede to having free will alone, but too scared to accept the hard truth that we are not truly in control. They want it both ways and will invent all kinds of ridiculous theories to support their belief.
this has got to be one of the worst articles ever written on the subject of determinism vrs free will.
Needless hyperbole. A 10-second Google search turned up worse, so I can’t imagine you had any basis for this claim. Example. Saying false things to be insulting is not well-liked around here.
You want some scientific proof for Determinism? start with a book called “The Illusion Of Conscious Will” by Wegner. Its a 400 page book that is cover to cover scientific study on the fact that we don’t really act freely. Test studies, in Labs!
Sadly, experimental studies are not likely the right place to answer this question. Once you have a clear enough idea of what you’re talking about, the question goes away. We’re “really in control” of our actions at least as much as the thermostat is “really in control” of the temperature, and if you don’t think that counts, then you’re using “control” in a very alien sense.
Sereboi, welcome to Less Wrong! Be sure and hit the welcome thread soon.
By the way, I notice you’re getting downvotes on the comment (not by me); it’s probably the tone rather than the content. Like any community, we have our norms of etiquette, and they’re usually signaled by voting.
More substantively, I think you’re answering the question without properly dissolving it, which is necessary in the case of something like free will that genuinely confuses many intelligent people. (I’m not supporting the current post against this comment, just pointing out that your comment by itself won’t dispel people’s confusion over free will.)
well this is a lame system if i have ever seen one, all it takes is a few people to rally and boom your out, sounds like intellectual snobbery to me.
No matter, nothing will dispel peoples believes about whatever, i simply stated the case that this blog/article is nothing but conjecture, no hard evidence to back up what is being said. If your going to make an intelligent opinion about something, shouldn’t you have some evidence to back it up?
I stated my position and gave information on where to get substantiated evidence on the subject and im voted out?
No matter, nothing will dispel peoples beliefs, i simply stated the case that this blog/article is nothing but conjecture, no hard evidence to back up what is being said. If your going to make an intelligent opinion about something, shouldn’t you have some evidence to back it up?
I stated my position and gave information on where to get substantiated evidence on the subject and im voted out?
As for the article on “dissolving the problem” rather than trying to answer it, this is the very pompous cop out. By calling something meaningless and diffusing it you can do that with the very nature of philosophy ie. “Reason and rational thought is subjective and meaningless and i challenge anyone to truly define it.”
do you see how absurd that is?
I agree that in a complex debate like this it is ignorant to claim that you have the ultimate truth, and i by no means do. In fact i said “the verdict is still out.” But holding a position my not holding a position just seems like a trick. If you really want to get to the bottom of something you dig up facts not conjecture.
Im sorry i wont do a pompous intellectual 2-step with everyone, when discussing matters like this i prefer to get down to business, OPEN MINDED, but discussing facts if there are any.
Calm down! I’m not saying what you think I’m saying.
First off, I suggested you go and introduce yourself on the welcome thread in part because that’s usually good for a few upvotes, and that avoids the annoying feature where people with negative karma can’t comment more than once every 10 minutes or so. I think there should be a buffer, because getting a comment downvoted isn’t such a rare or awful thing on LW, but in lieu of that it’s worth it to make an effort to get some karma at first.
Again, the downvotes are more about style than substance. We don’t run our arguments here the way they happen elsewhere on the Internet, and because of that we have fewer flamewars and more real arguments. If you want to discuss things with us, you might have to adopt a different style than usual. I know that’s an asshole thing of me to say, but that’s how it is.
Finally, I’m not at all arguing against determinism, and I’m not defending the current post. Determinism holds without exception, and the idea of free will as most people think of it is incoherent. However, just stopping there isn’t actually sufficient: it remains to ask why we feel that we have free will— are those feelings an illusion, and if so, why do we have them in the first place, or are they a reflection of something that actually goes on within the deterministic mind, and if so, why do they feel to us like something incompatible with determinism?
Those questions are a lot more interesting, and don’t just go away once one realizes that the universe is deterministic in nature.
thanks
thanks for the information, honestly i got to this site cause i get e-mail alerts from google with anything about determinism. So when i read the article i thought it was some regular commentator. i had no idea that it was written by someone in a smaller community. That is why i was so harsh in my opening line...
Well now that i have a better understanding of what this site is about, if i make anymore comments i will word them a bit differently thanks again.
e-mail alerts from google with anything about determinism
Now I am curious. First, I didn’t know that it is possible to be alerted this way, but mainly: why have you adopted this feature? There is surely a lot of determinism-themed crap around, you have to get tons of e-mail every day. Or am I mistaken about how it works?
Talk about creating a “strawman”!? This has got to be one of the worst articles ever written on the subject of determinism vrs free will. You postulate conjecture more freely than anyone i have ever seen. There is absolutely nothing here to back up your claims, sincerely is this a joke?
You want some scientific proof for Determinism? start with a book called “The Illusion Of Conscious Will” by Wegner. Its a 400 page book that is cover to cover scientific study on the fact that we don’t really act freely. Test studies, in Labs!
You are a compatibilist.
And even though i agree the verdict is still out on Hard Determinism. Compatibilism along with free will is just straight up ludicrous. There is no real proof on either and when ever juxtapose-determinism wins over compatibilism every time by a land slide. People that are compatibilist are too smart to concede to having free will alone, but too scared to accept the hard truth that we are not truly in control. They want it both ways and will invent all kinds of ridiculous theories to support their belief.
Needless hyperbole. A 10-second Google search turned up worse, so I can’t imagine you had any basis for this claim. Example. Saying false things to be insulting is not well-liked around here.
Sadly, experimental studies are not likely the right place to answer this question. Once you have a clear enough idea of what you’re talking about, the question goes away. We’re “really in control” of our actions at least as much as the thermostat is “really in control” of the temperature, and if you don’t think that counts, then you’re using “control” in a very alien sense.
Perhaps try starting at the wiki entry on free will
Sereboi, welcome to Less Wrong! Be sure and hit the welcome thread soon.
By the way, I notice you’re getting downvotes on the comment (not by me); it’s probably the tone rather than the content. Like any community, we have our norms of etiquette, and they’re usually signaled by voting.
More substantively, I think you’re answering the question without properly dissolving it, which is necessary in the case of something like free will that genuinely confuses many intelligent people. (I’m not supporting the current post against this comment, just pointing out that your comment by itself won’t dispel people’s confusion over free will.)
well this is a lame system if i have ever seen one, all it takes is a few people to rally and boom your out, sounds like intellectual snobbery to me.
No matter, nothing will dispel peoples believes about whatever, i simply stated the case that this blog/article is nothing but conjecture, no hard evidence to back up what is being said. If your going to make an intelligent opinion about something, shouldn’t you have some evidence to back it up?
I stated my position and gave information on where to get substantiated evidence on the subject and im voted out?
ludicrous.
This sounds like intellectual snobbery to me.
No matter, nothing will dispel peoples beliefs, i simply stated the case that this blog/article is nothing but conjecture, no hard evidence to back up what is being said. If your going to make an intelligent opinion about something, shouldn’t you have some evidence to back it up?
I stated my position and gave information on where to get substantiated evidence on the subject and im voted out?
As for the article on “dissolving the problem” rather than trying to answer it, this is the very pompous cop out. By calling something meaningless and diffusing it you can do that with the very nature of philosophy ie. “Reason and rational thought is subjective and meaningless and i challenge anyone to truly define it.”
do you see how absurd that is?
I agree that in a complex debate like this it is ignorant to claim that you have the ultimate truth, and i by no means do. In fact i said “the verdict is still out.” But holding a position my not holding a position just seems like a trick. If you really want to get to the bottom of something you dig up facts not conjecture.
Im sorry i wont do a pompous intellectual 2-step with everyone, when discussing matters like this i prefer to get down to business, OPEN MINDED, but discussing facts if there are any.
Calm down! I’m not saying what you think I’m saying.
First off, I suggested you go and introduce yourself on the welcome thread in part because that’s usually good for a few upvotes, and that avoids the annoying feature where people with negative karma can’t comment more than once every 10 minutes or so. I think there should be a buffer, because getting a comment downvoted isn’t such a rare or awful thing on LW, but in lieu of that it’s worth it to make an effort to get some karma at first.
Again, the downvotes are more about style than substance. We don’t run our arguments here the way they happen elsewhere on the Internet, and because of that we have fewer flamewars and more real arguments. If you want to discuss things with us, you might have to adopt a different style than usual. I know that’s an asshole thing of me to say, but that’s how it is.
Finally, I’m not at all arguing against determinism, and I’m not defending the current post. Determinism holds without exception, and the idea of free will as most people think of it is incoherent. However, just stopping there isn’t actually sufficient: it remains to ask why we feel that we have free will— are those feelings an illusion, and if so, why do we have them in the first place, or are they a reflection of something that actually goes on within the deterministic mind, and if so, why do they feel to us like something incompatible with determinism?
Those questions are a lot more interesting, and don’t just go away once one realizes that the universe is deterministic in nature.
thanks thanks for the information, honestly i got to this site cause i get e-mail alerts from google with anything about determinism. So when i read the article i thought it was some regular commentator. i had no idea that it was written by someone in a smaller community. That is why i was so harsh in my opening line...
Well now that i have a better understanding of what this site is about, if i make anymore comments i will word them a bit differently thanks again.
Now I am curious. First, I didn’t know that it is possible to be alerted this way, but mainly: why have you adopted this feature? There is surely a lot of determinism-themed crap around, you have to get tons of e-mail every day. Or am I mistaken about how it works?
First: Google Alerts.