Let me restate: social obligations are not at the core of what faith is. One could believe something without proof if she were alone in the universe. Faith certainly can be a social obligation, and depending upon what it is faith in, could easily necessitate social obligations, but the general idea of “believing in something without evidence” can be done by one person alone, and social obligations are by no means part of that definition.
What religious people mean by “faith” and what faith actually is do not have to be the same thing.
Also, Nietzsche was definitely not confused about what religious people mean by faith. You’re just confused because that quote isn’t a statement about what faith is, but rather, a statement about the psychology of the faithful.
As for the psychology of faith, to use your example of being faithful to you spouse, you want your spouse not to cheat on you. Thus this is a game of prisoner’s dilemma or at least stag hunt, faith amounts to the Timeless Decision Theory solution which requires the belief that your spouse won’t cheat on you if you don’t cheat on her. Because there is no direct causal relationship between these two events it sounds a lot like believing without proof, especially if one doesn’t know enough game theory to understand accusal relationships.
You seem to be missing the point. “Faith” in terms of religious belief is not the same thing as being “faithful” to your spouse.
You’re equivocating. Also, that’s not a Prisoner’s Dilemma. A Prisoner’s Dilemma allows no precommittments(you don’t expect to get arrested; neither does your partner), and no communication with your partner once the game starts. It’s clear that neither of those requirements is true when considering fidelity to one’s partner. Relationships are not Prisoner’s Dilemma situations. It takes an extreme stretch of the situation, and a skewed placement of values for BOTH players for it to resemble one. If both players can gain more utility from being unfaithful, why not implement an open relationship? If the utility from being unfaithful is high enough(higher than the utility of the relationship itself), why continue the relationship?
Loyalty to one’s partner differs in many many many ways from religious faith.
That has to be the worst citation in support of an argument I’ve ever seen. “Standard usage”...is number 6 on a list of different models of faith in philosophical terms? Right. That’s clearly what most people mean when they talk about faith.
Also, trusting someone else is the opposite of fidelity to that person, not the same thing.
Regardless, the definition Nietzsche is using is obviously not referring to a trust-based model.
That has to be the worst citation in support of an argument I’ve ever seen.
Let me be the first to welcome you, since it appears this is your first day on the Internet.
“Standard usage”...is number 6 on a list of different models of faith in philosophical terms? Right. That’s clearly what most people mean when they talk about faith.
I wasn’t aware of the context in which your back-and-forth with Eugine_Nier was taking place, since I only started reading at this comment when it was in the recent comments feed. My bad. I assumed you thought he was using “faith” in an idiosyncratic way, rather than in a way that has been part of theology for almost a millennium. After reading a few comments up I can see that you were referring to a particular quote by Nietzsche (one in which he probably did not mean to refer to the concept of faith as trust).
Also, trusting someone else is the opposite of fidelity to that person, not the same thing.
Obviously, “trusting someone” is not the same as “fidelity to that person”. I never claimed otherwise. On the other hand, opposite is way too strong a word for this. Moreover, Eugine_Nier’s comment never made such an equivalence claim. He said that “faith amounts” to the “belief that your spouse won’t cheat on you”. This sounds very much like the concept of faith as trust (and not its opposite).
Regardless, the definition Nietzsche is using is obviously not referring to a trust-based model.
No, this has been standard usage since at least as far back as the High Middle Ages.
It is a usage of the same original word that has clearly diverged such that to substitute the intended meaning across contexts is most decidedly equivocation. “Faith” as in a kind of belief is not the same meaning as “faithful” as in not fucking other people. This should be obvious. The origin of the (nearly euphemistic) usage of the term is beside the point.
It is a usage of the same original word that has clearly diverged such that to substitute the intended meaning across contexts is most decidedly equivocation. “Faith” as in a kind of belief is not the same meaning as “faithful” as in not fucking other people. This should be obvious. The origin of the (nearly euphemistic) usage of the term is beside the point.
What evidence, if it existed, would cause you to change your mind?
Except that faith has little to nothing to do with social obligations. Faith is believing something without proof or even reason to believe it.
Unless you mean “faith” as in being “faithful” to your spouse, in which case, that’s not even the same thing as what Nietzsche is talking about.
Except for, well, being one in most social circumstances and for certain beliefs.
Let me restate: social obligations are not at the core of what faith is. One could believe something without proof if she were alone in the universe. Faith certainly can be a social obligation, and depending upon what it is faith in, could easily necessitate social obligations, but the general idea of “believing in something without evidence” can be done by one person alone, and social obligations are by no means part of that definition.
Agree with this restatement.
The problem is that Nietzsche was confused about what religious people mean by “faith”, as a result his argument is essentially a straw-man.
What religious people mean by “faith” and what faith actually is do not have to be the same thing.
Also, Nietzsche was definitely not confused about what religious people mean by faith. You’re just confused because that quote isn’t a statement about what faith is, but rather, a statement about the psychology of the faithful.
As for the psychology of faith, to use your example of being faithful to you spouse, you want your spouse not to cheat on you. Thus this is a game of prisoner’s dilemma or at least stag hunt, faith amounts to the Timeless Decision Theory solution which requires the belief that your spouse won’t cheat on you if you don’t cheat on her. Because there is no direct causal relationship between these two events it sounds a lot like believing without proof, especially if one doesn’t know enough game theory to understand accusal relationships.
You seem to be missing the point. “Faith” in terms of religious belief is not the same thing as being “faithful” to your spouse.
You’re equivocating. Also, that’s not a Prisoner’s Dilemma. A Prisoner’s Dilemma allows no precommittments(you don’t expect to get arrested; neither does your partner), and no communication with your partner once the game starts. It’s clear that neither of those requirements is true when considering fidelity to one’s partner. Relationships are not Prisoner’s Dilemma situations. It takes an extreme stretch of the situation, and a skewed placement of values for BOTH players for it to resemble one. If both players can gain more utility from being unfaithful, why not implement an open relationship? If the utility from being unfaithful is high enough(higher than the utility of the relationship itself), why continue the relationship?
Loyalty to one’s partner differs in many many many ways from religious faith.
No, this has been standard usage since at least as far back as the High Middle Ages.
That has to be the worst citation in support of an argument I’ve ever seen. “Standard usage”...is number 6 on a list of different models of faith in philosophical terms? Right. That’s clearly what most people mean when they talk about faith.
Also, trusting someone else is the opposite of fidelity to that person, not the same thing.
Regardless, the definition Nietzsche is using is obviously not referring to a trust-based model.
Let me be the first to welcome you, since it appears this is your first day on the Internet.
I wasn’t aware of the context in which your back-and-forth with Eugine_Nier was taking place, since I only started reading at this comment when it was in the recent comments feed. My bad. I assumed you thought he was using “faith” in an idiosyncratic way, rather than in a way that has been part of theology for almost a millennium. After reading a few comments up I can see that you were referring to a particular quote by Nietzsche (one in which he probably did not mean to refer to the concept of faith as trust).
Obviously, “trusting someone” is not the same as “fidelity to that person”. I never claimed otherwise. On the other hand, opposite is way too strong a word for this. Moreover, Eugine_Nier’s comment never made such an equivalence claim. He said that “faith amounts” to the “belief that your spouse won’t cheat on you”. This sounds very much like the concept of faith as trust (and not its opposite).
We are in full agreement on this point.
It is a usage of the same original word that has clearly diverged such that to substitute the intended meaning across contexts is most decidedly equivocation. “Faith” as in a kind of belief is not the same meaning as “faithful” as in not fucking other people. This should be obvious. The origin of the (nearly euphemistic) usage of the term is beside the point.
What evidence, if it existed, would cause you to change your mind?