Is this specific to the Arabic language, or is it just the mismatch there will be between any two languages?
It’s not specific to Arabic, but Arabic is particularly amenable to such wide interpretation.
I note that Christians take a completely different view of their sacred text: it must be provided to everyone in their own language, the better for them to understand it.
Well, what Christians? Some Christians do insist on studying the “relatively original” texts.
And the problem Christians face is different. To some extent, they don’t have the original text. They only have translations (at best) and rumors (in the other direction.)
Much Christian opinion (as with much Muslim opinion) is preposterous. In order to revere the Bible, as “the Word of God,” and especially what they will hold up and thump or whatever they do, they have to create a whole doctrine of “inspired translation.” They have to assume, as well, that there is a message that can be translated, one size fits all, equivalent. No wonder the standard Christian story is so … dumb.
(I hasten to add that there are lots of Christians who understand it differently, and, in my experience, they more that they actually know about their religion, the broader their view. The naive fundamentalist view is largely ignorant of Christian tradition, not only of other possibilities.)
What happens with a text like the Qur’an, or the Torah, or the Gospels, is that they are interpreted, and that the interpretations come to be considered the original message, so much so that the original message practically disappears—even if the text is being read in the original language.
I read what’s reported of Jesus in the Gospels, and don’t notice that he claims to be God. He said some other things that are so interpreted, even though there are alternate interpretations that, in some cases, are extremely simple and consistent with the context. I’ve gone over these passages with Christians, on occasion. It is as if they can’t hear the alternate meanings, they keep saying, “But he said …!”
However, they don’t know what he said. He didn’t speak Greek, for starters, as far as we can tell. The only actual words of Jesus purportedly preserved were the words on the cross, kept in Aramaic, the language of the people of the time. (Aramaic and Arabic are very similar.)
Now as to Qur’anic exegesis, I’d be happy to look at any particular passage, indeed,it’s an obligation (it’s that “Muslim” thing, though it’s also broader, I do feel an obligation to respond on topics where I have unusual knowledge) . I can’t create top level posts, though my karma has been coming back up from the initial big whack. But I can respond to them.
What is it a reminder of?
It doesn’t say. I can only say what’s obvious to me, from my own experience of it. It’s a reminder of life, of our relationship with Reality, and we all, if we study and carefully consider ourselves, already know what it would remind us of. But there still is a language problem.
Or it’s not for you. The Qur’an does not, as some might assume, condemn “non-Muslims.” It warns against the consequences of denial, though. Yup. Be careful, eh? (And the Book says that it is for those who seek to be careful, it just doesn’t create a Careful Club, with badges that will ward off Hellfire, just say the magic words.
Rumi made the point.
He describes the situation of the castle of a King, defended by dogs. Someone coming, unwelcome, to the castle, telling the dogs, “I take refuge in the King from your viciousness,” will be torn to pieces by them. No, only if the visitor is actually clinging to the “hem of the King” will they be safe. Rumi was asserting that the most common ritual phrase in Islam, repeated with every prayer session, was useless unless it represented a reality.
An actual refuge being taken in Reality, an actual trust in Reality, I’ve been saying.
My reading of it reminds me only of …
There is a good chance that you understood none of it. That’s okay. It’s not in your language, and was not explained to you consistently with your existing accepted concepts (i.e., creating a bridge).. You expected something different from a book. This is no ordinary book, even if we simply look at it from a point of view of history.
Yes. If accurate, unambiguous communication is the purpose, that’s true, though for that purpose, even in English, terms must be specifically defined for context. Jargon. Seems to me that this happens around here.
If a different form of communication is the purpose, such as with poetry, Arabic might even be optimal.
However, the Qur’an does explain why it’s in Arabic. It’s because Muhammad was Arab. And so was his community.
Did you notice the place where I mentioned that each of the seven “dialects” (sets of meanings for words) and the seven “interpretations” was confirmed by the Prophet as being legitimate? I assume, for some purpose.
The Leader Astray is one of the names of God, for example. The Qur’an is not a science textbook, in spite of some rather naive and enthusiastic claims by some Muslims.
However, the Qur’an does explain why it’s in Arabic. It’s because Muhammad was Arab. And so was his community.
Well, duh. For the same reason, the Torah is in Hebrew, the New Testament was originally in Greek, and the Buddhist scriptures were originally in Pali. It’s almost as if, to communicate an idea to people, you have to express it in their language. Fancy that!
Did you notice the place where I mentioned that each of the seven “dialects” (sets of meanings for words) and the seven “interpretations” was confirmed by the Prophet as being legitimate? I assume, for some purpose.
I did, but I lack your faith in the value of ambiguity and obscurity, regarding them instead as deepity engines.
I do feel an obligation to respond on topics where I have unusual knowledge) . I can’t create top level posts, though my karma has been coming back up from the initial big whack. But I can respond to them.
I’d caution against creating a TLP on virtues of Islam, or any other religion for that matter. While it might be obvious to you that Islam is like nothing else, the inferential gap to the LW community is basically uncrossable, so you will only get whacked again. The general understanding is that Eliezer has adequately dealt with faith and religion when discussing belief in belief, and that Reductionism does not need faith, let alone any specific religion or scripture. I am guessing that the inferential gap works the other way, too: you likely misunderstand some of the standard ideas accepted and discussed here. It would be a good exercise in rational thinking to identify and analyze such inferential gaps between you and the more mainstream LWers.
The general understanding is that Eliezer has adequately dealt with faith and religion when discussing belief in belief
The general understanding is that none of that particular topic is unique to Eliezer, who mentions (but doesn’t always cite) his sources on “belief in belief” — specifically Sagan and Dennett.
I would also caution against using the idea “mainstream LWers” ….
The general understanding is that none of that particular topic is unique to Eliezer
Right. I did not mean to imply that it was original research, though I suspect that he reproduced much of it on his own before matching with the existing literature.
I would also caution against using the idea “mainstream LWers”
My definition of a “mainstream LWer” is someone who adopts the Reductionism sequence without any significant reservations. Whether it’s a good definition may be open to debate.
My definition of a “mainstream LWer” is someone who adopts the Reductionism sequence without any significant reservations. Whether it’s a good definition may be open to debate.
This “general understanding” might be so for some (most?) in the LW community, but my prior on that is, like, highly unlikely that a single individual in a few words has “adequately dealt” with centuries of human experience and thought and inquiry. What is quite possible is that EY has addressed certain outlines of the subject;.Generally I’m in agreement with him, but also see certain unexplored points. I’m continuing to read, and as I read more, I find both more agreement and more of what I usually call “edges.”
I wouldn’t dream of “creating a TLP on ‘virtues of Islam.’ Wrong place, for sure. I’m far more interested in rationality and the stated goals of this blog.
However, there was a whole school of Islam, dominant for a time, called the “rationalists,” and science was considered compatible with Islam for centuries. That’s an Islam that, I assume, most LWians haven’t contacted. So there may be some room for this, that’s all.
I’m quite aware that atheism is the standard belief here. However, is that a rational necessity? (And if it is, I’m still interested in the question of what atheism is. I do not think of it as being “wrong.”)
What is “obvious” to me is not what is being inferred by some from what I’ve written, nor would I expect it would be obvious to others who don’t share the necessary referents. I simply offered to respond if asked.
Fubarobfusco, thanks for the link. I’ll check that out. I do not imagine that LWers are monolithic, though some may imagine that their own opinions are the opinions of the group. Maybe. More likely, not, though they might dominate.
edit: I’d already read that, and TheSimpleTruth. I’ve been looking for a while, and I haven’t seen an examination of “faith and religion,” but only of certain naive ideas about them. I’m pretty sure that a higher degree of sophistication exists here. But I can’t yet prove it. Where should I look?
It’s not specific to Arabic, but Arabic is particularly amenable to such wide interpretation.
Well, what Christians? Some Christians do insist on studying the “relatively original” texts.
And the problem Christians face is different. To some extent, they don’t have the original text. They only have translations (at best) and rumors (in the other direction.)
Much Christian opinion (as with much Muslim opinion) is preposterous. In order to revere the Bible, as “the Word of God,” and especially what they will hold up and thump or whatever they do, they have to create a whole doctrine of “inspired translation.” They have to assume, as well, that there is a message that can be translated, one size fits all, equivalent. No wonder the standard Christian story is so … dumb.
(I hasten to add that there are lots of Christians who understand it differently, and, in my experience, they more that they actually know about their religion, the broader their view. The naive fundamentalist view is largely ignorant of Christian tradition, not only of other possibilities.)
What happens with a text like the Qur’an, or the Torah, or the Gospels, is that they are interpreted, and that the interpretations come to be considered the original message, so much so that the original message practically disappears—even if the text is being read in the original language.
I read what’s reported of Jesus in the Gospels, and don’t notice that he claims to be God. He said some other things that are so interpreted, even though there are alternate interpretations that, in some cases, are extremely simple and consistent with the context. I’ve gone over these passages with Christians, on occasion. It is as if they can’t hear the alternate meanings, they keep saying, “But he said …!”
However, they don’t know what he said. He didn’t speak Greek, for starters, as far as we can tell. The only actual words of Jesus purportedly preserved were the words on the cross, kept in Aramaic, the language of the people of the time. (Aramaic and Arabic are very similar.)
Now as to Qur’anic exegesis, I’d be happy to look at any particular passage, indeed,it’s an obligation (it’s that “Muslim” thing, though it’s also broader, I do feel an obligation to respond on topics where I have unusual knowledge) . I can’t create top level posts, though my karma has been coming back up from the initial big whack. But I can respond to them.
It doesn’t say. I can only say what’s obvious to me, from my own experience of it. It’s a reminder of life, of our relationship with Reality, and we all, if we study and carefully consider ourselves, already know what it would remind us of. But there still is a language problem.
Or it’s not for you. The Qur’an does not, as some might assume, condemn “non-Muslims.” It warns against the consequences of denial, though. Yup. Be careful, eh? (And the Book says that it is for those who seek to be careful, it just doesn’t create a Careful Club, with badges that will ward off Hellfire, just say the magic words.
Rumi made the point.
He describes the situation of the castle of a King, defended by dogs. Someone coming, unwelcome, to the castle, telling the dogs, “I take refuge in the King from your viciousness,” will be torn to pieces by them. No, only if the visitor is actually clinging to the “hem of the King” will they be safe. Rumi was asserting that the most common ritual phrase in Islam, repeated with every prayer session, was useless unless it represented a reality.
An actual refuge being taken in Reality, an actual trust in Reality, I’ve been saying.
There is a good chance that you understood none of it. That’s okay. It’s not in your language, and was not explained to you consistently with your existing accepted concepts (i.e., creating a bridge).. You expected something different from a book. This is no ordinary book, even if we simply look at it from a point of view of history.
If communication is the purpose, that is a defect, not a virtue.
Yes. If accurate, unambiguous communication is the purpose, that’s true, though for that purpose, even in English, terms must be specifically defined for context. Jargon. Seems to me that this happens around here.
If a different form of communication is the purpose, such as with poetry, Arabic might even be optimal.
However, the Qur’an does explain why it’s in Arabic. It’s because Muhammad was Arab. And so was his community.
Did you notice the place where I mentioned that each of the seven “dialects” (sets of meanings for words) and the seven “interpretations” was confirmed by the Prophet as being legitimate? I assume, for some purpose.
The Leader Astray is one of the names of God, for example. The Qur’an is not a science textbook, in spite of some rather naive and enthusiastic claims by some Muslims.
Well, duh. For the same reason, the Torah is in Hebrew, the New Testament was originally in Greek, and the Buddhist scriptures were originally in Pali. It’s almost as if, to communicate an idea to people, you have to express it in their language. Fancy that!
I did, but I lack your faith in the value of ambiguity and obscurity, regarding them instead as deepity engines.
I’d caution against creating a TLP on virtues of Islam, or any other religion for that matter. While it might be obvious to you that Islam is like nothing else, the inferential gap to the LW community is basically uncrossable, so you will only get whacked again. The general understanding is that Eliezer has adequately dealt with faith and religion when discussing belief in belief, and that Reductionism does not need faith, let alone any specific religion or scripture. I am guessing that the inferential gap works the other way, too: you likely misunderstand some of the standard ideas accepted and discussed here. It would be a good exercise in rational thinking to identify and analyze such inferential gaps between you and the more mainstream LWers.
The general understanding is that none of that particular topic is unique to Eliezer, who mentions (but doesn’t always cite) his sources on “belief in belief” — specifically Sagan and Dennett.
I would also caution against using the idea “mainstream LWers” ….
Right. I did not mean to imply that it was original research, though I suspect that he reproduced much of it on his own before matching with the existing literature.
My definition of a “mainstream LWer” is someone who adopts the Reductionism sequence without any significant reservations. Whether it’s a good definition may be open to debate.
My definition of “phyggery” is … ah, never mind.
This “general understanding” might be so for some (most?) in the LW community, but my prior on that is, like, highly unlikely that a single individual in a few words has “adequately dealt” with centuries of human experience and thought and inquiry. What is quite possible is that EY has addressed certain outlines of the subject;.Generally I’m in agreement with him, but also see certain unexplored points. I’m continuing to read, and as I read more, I find both more agreement and more of what I usually call “edges.”
I wouldn’t dream of “creating a TLP on ‘virtues of Islam.’ Wrong place, for sure. I’m far more interested in rationality and the stated goals of this blog.
However, there was a whole school of Islam, dominant for a time, called the “rationalists,” and science was considered compatible with Islam for centuries. That’s an Islam that, I assume, most LWians haven’t contacted. So there may be some room for this, that’s all.
I’m quite aware that atheism is the standard belief here. However, is that a rational necessity? (And if it is, I’m still interested in the question of what atheism is. I do not think of it as being “wrong.”)
What is “obvious” to me is not what is being inferred by some from what I’ve written, nor would I expect it would be obvious to others who don’t share the necessary referents. I simply offered to respond if asked.
Fubarobfusco, thanks for the link. I’ll check that out. I do not imagine that LWers are monolithic, though some may imagine that their own opinions are the opinions of the group. Maybe. More likely, not, though they might dominate.
edit: I’d already read that, and TheSimpleTruth. I’ve been looking for a while, and I haven’t seen an examination of “faith and religion,” but only of certain naive ideas about them. I’m pretty sure that a higher degree of sophistication exists here. But I can’t yet prove it. Where should I look?