Rob—you claim ‘it’s very obvious that Ben is neither deliberately asserting falsehoods, nor publishing “with reckless disregard’.
Why do you think that’s obvious? We don’t know the facts of the matter. We don’t know what information he gathered. We don’t know the contents of the interviews he did. As far as we can tell, there was no independent editing, fact-checking, or oversight in this writing process. He’s just a guy who hasn’t been trained as an investigative journalist, who did some investigative journalism-type research, and wrote it up.
Number of hours invested in research does not necessarily correlate with objectivity of research—quite the opposite, if someone has any kind of hidden agenda.
I think it’s likely that Ben was researching and writing in good faith, and did not have a hidden agenda. But that’s based on almost nothing other than my heuristic that ‘he seems to be respected in EA/LessWrong circles, and EAs generally seem to act in good faith’.
But I’d never heard of him until yesterday. He has no established track record as an investigative journalist. And I have no idea what kind of hidden agendas he might have.
So, until we know a lot more about this case, I’ll withhold judgment about who might or might not be deliberately asserting falsehoods.
I know Ben, I’ve conversed with him a number of times in the past and seen lots of his LW comments, and I have a very strong and confident sense of his priorities and values. I also read the post, which “shows its work” to such a degree that Ben would need to be unusually evil and deceptive in order for this post to be an act of deception.
I don’t have any private knowledge about Nonlinear or about Ben’s investigation, but I’m happy to vouch for Ben, such that if he turns out to have been lying, I ought to take a credibility hit too.
He’s just a guy who hasn’t been trained as an investigative journalist
If he were a random non-LW investigative journalist, I’d be a lot less confident in the post’s honesty.
Number of hours invested in research does not necessarily correlate with objectivity of research
“Number of hours invested” doesn’t prove Ben isn’t a lying sociopath (heck, if you think that you can just posit that he’s lying about the hours spent), but if he isn’t a lying sociopath, it’s strong evidence against negligence.
So, until we know a lot more about this case, I’ll withhold judgment about who might or might not be deliberately asserting falsehoods.
That’s totally fine, since as you say, you’d never heard of Ben until yesterday. (FWIW, I think he’s one of the best rationalists out there, and he’s a well-established Berkeley-rat community member who co-runs LessWrong and who tons of other veteran LWers can vouch for.)
My claim isn’t “Geoffrey should be confident that Ben is being honest” (that maybe depends on how much stock you put in my vouching and meta-vouching here), but rather:
I’m pretty sure Emerson doesn’t have strong reason to think Ben isn’t being honest here.
If Emerson lacks strong reason to think Ben is being dishonest, then he definitely shouldn’t have threatened to sue Ben.
E.g., I’m claiming here that you shouldn’t sue someone for libel if you feel highly uncertain about whether they’re being honest or dishonest. It’s ethically necessary (though IMO not sufficient) that you feel pretty sure the other person is being super dishonest. And I’d be very surprised if Emerson has rationally reached that epistemic state (because I know Ben, and I expect he conducted himself in his interactions with Nonlinear the same way he normally conducts himself).
Reading these comments three months later, I want to note that I am downgrading your credibility as well and I think it’s worth specifically stating as such, because while it seems abundantly clear your intentions are good and you do not participate in bad faith, the series of extremely harsh comments I’ve been directing towards Ben’s work in the update thread apply to your analysis of his work as well. I think you treated number of hours as a reason to assign credibility without considering balance in those hours, and failed to consider the ways in which refusing to look at contrary evidence credibly promised to be available soon suggests reckless disregard for truth.
(But insofar as you continue to be unsure about Ben, yes, you should be open to the possibility that Emerson has hidden information that justifies Emerson thinking Ben is being super dishonest. My confidence re “no hidden information like that” is downstream of my beliefs about Ben’s character.)
Rob—you claim ‘it’s very obvious that Ben is neither deliberately asserting falsehoods, nor publishing “with reckless disregard’.
Why do you think that’s obvious? We don’t know the facts of the matter. We don’t know what information he gathered. We don’t know the contents of the interviews he did. As far as we can tell, there was no independent editing, fact-checking, or oversight in this writing process. He’s just a guy who hasn’t been trained as an investigative journalist, who did some investigative journalism-type research, and wrote it up.
Number of hours invested in research does not necessarily correlate with objectivity of research—quite the opposite, if someone has any kind of hidden agenda.
I think it’s likely that Ben was researching and writing in good faith, and did not have a hidden agenda. But that’s based on almost nothing other than my heuristic that ‘he seems to be respected in EA/LessWrong circles, and EAs generally seem to act in good faith’.
But I’d never heard of him until yesterday. He has no established track record as an investigative journalist. And I have no idea what kind of hidden agendas he might have.
So, until we know a lot more about this case, I’ll withhold judgment about who might or might not be deliberately asserting falsehoods.
I know Ben, I’ve conversed with him a number of times in the past and seen lots of his LW comments, and I have a very strong and confident sense of his priorities and values. I also read the post, which “shows its work” to such a degree that Ben would need to be unusually evil and deceptive in order for this post to be an act of deception.
I don’t have any private knowledge about Nonlinear or about Ben’s investigation, but I’m happy to vouch for Ben, such that if he turns out to have been lying, I ought to take a credibility hit too.
If he were a random non-LW investigative journalist, I’d be a lot less confident in the post’s honesty.
“Number of hours invested” doesn’t prove Ben isn’t a lying sociopath (heck, if you think that you can just posit that he’s lying about the hours spent), but if he isn’t a lying sociopath, it’s strong evidence against negligence.
That’s totally fine, since as you say, you’d never heard of Ben until yesterday. (FWIW, I think he’s one of the best rationalists out there, and he’s a well-established Berkeley-rat community member who co-runs LessWrong and who tons of other veteran LWers can vouch for.)
My claim isn’t “Geoffrey should be confident that Ben is being honest” (that maybe depends on how much stock you put in my vouching and meta-vouching here), but rather:
I’m pretty sure Emerson doesn’t have strong reason to think Ben isn’t being honest here.
If Emerson lacks strong reason to think Ben is being dishonest, then he definitely shouldn’t have threatened to sue Ben.
E.g., I’m claiming here that you shouldn’t sue someone for libel if you feel highly uncertain about whether they’re being honest or dishonest. It’s ethically necessary (though IMO not sufficient) that you feel pretty sure the other person is being super dishonest. And I’d be very surprised if Emerson has rationally reached that epistemic state (because I know Ben, and I expect he conducted himself in his interactions with Nonlinear the same way he normally conducts himself).
Reading these comments three months later, I want to note that I am downgrading your credibility as well and I think it’s worth specifically stating as such, because while it seems abundantly clear your intentions are good and you do not participate in bad faith, the series of extremely harsh comments I’ve been directing towards Ben’s work in the update thread apply to your analysis of his work as well. I think you treated number of hours as a reason to assign credibility without considering balance in those hours, and failed to consider the ways in which refusing to look at contrary evidence credibly promised to be available soon suggests reckless disregard for truth.
Fair enough. Thanks for replying. It’s helpful to have a little more background on Ben. (I might write more, but I’m busy with a newborn baby here...)
(But insofar as you continue to be unsure about Ben, yes, you should be open to the possibility that Emerson has hidden information that justifies Emerson thinking Ben is being super dishonest. My confidence re “no hidden information like that” is downstream of my beliefs about Ben’s character.)