Curi knows things that you don’t. He knows that LW is wrong about some very important things and is trying to correct that. These things LW is wrong about are preventing you making progress. And furthermore, LW does not have effective means for error correction, as curi has tried to explain, and that in itself is causing problems.
Curi is not alone thinking LW is majorly wrong in some important areas. Others do too, including David Deutsch, whom curi has had many many discussions with. I do too, though no doubt there are people here who will say I am just a sock-puppet of curi’s.
curi is not some cheap salesman trying to flog ideas. He is trying to save the world. He is trying to do that by getting people to think better. He has spent years thinking about this problem. He has written tens-of-thousands of posts in many forums, sought out the best people to have discussions with, and addresses all criticisms. He has made himself way more open than anyone to receiving criticism. When millions of people think better, big problems like AGI will be solved faster.
curi right now is the world’s leading expert on epistemology. he got that way not by seeking status and prestige or publications in academic journals but by relentlessly pursuing the truth. All the ideas he holds to be true he has subjected to a furnace of criticism and he has changed his ideas when they could not withstand criticism. And if you can show to very high standards why CR is wrong, curi will concede and change his ideas again.
You have no idea about curi’s intellectual history and what he is capable of. He is by far the best thinker I have ever encountered. He has revealed here only a very tiny fraction of what he knows.
So what have this Great Person achieved in real life? Besides learning Ruby and writing some MtG guides? Given that he is Oh So Very Great, surely he must left his mark on the world already. Where is that mark?
So what have this Great Person achieved in real life? Besides learning Ruby and writing some MtG guides?
If you want to be a serious thinker and make your criticisms better, you really need to improve your research skills. That comment is lazy, wrong, and hostile. Curi invented Paths Forward. He invented Yes/No philosophy, which is an improvement on Popper’s Critical Preferences. He founded Fallible Ideas. He kept Taking Children Seriously alive. He has written millions of words on philosophy and added a lot of clarity to ideas by Popper, Rand, Deutsch, Godwin, and so on. He used his philosophy skills to become a world-class gamer …
Given that he is Oh So Very Great, surely he must left his mark on the world already. Where is that mark?
Again, you show your ignorance. Are you aware of the battles great ideas and great people often face?Think of the ignorance and hostility that is directed at Karl Popper and Ayn Rand. Think of the silence that met Hugh Everett. These things are common. To quote curi:
It’s hard to criticize your intellectual betters, but easy to misunderstand and consequently vilify them. More generally, people tend to be hostile to outliers and sympathize with more conventional and conformist stuff – even though most great new ideas, and great men, are outliers.
I’ve been here awhile. Your account is a few days old. Why are you here?
The world is burning and you’re helping spread the fire.
Whether the world is burning or not is an interesting discussion, but I’m quite sure that better epistemology isn’t going to put out the fire. Writing voluminous amounts of text on a vanity website isn’t going to do it either.
I’ve been here awhile. Your account is a few days old. Why are you here?
That’s not an answer. That’s an evasion.
Whether the world is burning or not is an interesting discussion, but I’m quite sure that better epistemology isn’t going to put out the fire.
Epistemology tells you how to think. Moral philosophy tells you how to live. You cannot even fight the fire without better epistemology and better moral philosophy.
Writing voluminous amounts of text on a vanity website isn’t going to do it either.
Why do you desire so much to impute bad motives to curi?
The question is ill-posed. Without context it’s too open-ended to have any meaning. But let me say that I’m here not to save the world. Is that sufficient?
Epistemology tells you how to think.
No, it doesn’t. It deals with acquiring knowledge. There are other things—like logic—which are quite important to thinking.
impute bad motives to curi?
I don’t impute bad motives to him. I just think that he is full of himself and has… delusions about his importance and relationship to truth.
No, it doesn’t. It deals with acquiring knowledge. There are other things—like logic—which are quite important to thinking.
Human knowledge acquisition happens by learning. It involves coming up with guesses and error-correcting those guesses via criticism in an evolutionary process. This is going on in your mind all the time, consciously and subconsciously. It is how we are able to think. And knowing how this works enables us to think better. This is epistemology. And the breakthrough in AGI will come from epistemology. At a very high level, we already know what is going on.
And knowing how this works enables us to think better.
Sure, but that’s not sufficient. You need to show that the effect will be significant, suitable for the task at hand, and is the best use of the available resources.
Drinking CNS stimulants (such as coffee) in the morning also enables us to think better. So what?
And the breakthrough in AGI will come from epistemology.
The question is ill-posed. Without context it’s too open-ended to have any meaning.
This is just more evasion.
But let me say that I’m here not to save the world. Is that sufficient?
You know Yudkowsky also wants to save the world right? That Less Wrong is ultimately about saving the world? If you do not want to save the world, you’re in the wrong place.
I don’t impute bad motives to him. I just think that he is full of himself and has… delusions about his importance and relationship to truth.
Hypothetically, suppose you came across a great man who knew he was great and honestly said so. Suppose also that great man had some true new ideas you were unfamiliar with but that contradicted many ideas you thought were important and true. In what way would your response to him be different to your response to curi?
Fail to ask a clear question, and you will fail to get a clear answer.
You know Yudkowsky also wants to save the world right?
Not quite save—EY wants to lessen the chance that the humans will be screwed over by off-the-rails AI.
That Less Wrong is ultimately about saving the world?
Oh grasshopper, maybe you will eventually learn that not all things are what they look like and even fewer are what they say the are.
you’re in the wrong place
I am disinclined to accept your judgement in this matter :-P
Hypothetically, suppose you came across a great man … In what way would your response to him be different to your response to curi?
Obviously it depends on the way he presented his new ideas. curi’s ideas are not new and were presented quite badly.
There are two additional points here. One is that knowledge is uncertain, fallible, if you wish. Knowledge about the future (= forecasts) is much more so. Great men rarely know they are great, they may guess at their role in history but should properly be very hesitant about it.
Two, I’m much more likely to meet someone who knew he was Napoleon, the rightful Emperor of France, and honestly said so rather than a truly great man who goes around proclaiming his greatness. I’m sure Napoleon has some great ideas that I’m unfamiliar with—what should my response be?
What’s so special about this? If you’re wrong about religion you get to avoidably burn in hell too, in a more literal sense. That does not (and cannot) automatically change your mind about religion, or get you to invest years in the study of all possible religions, in case one of them happens to be true.
As Lumifer said, nothing. Even if I were wrong about that, your general position would still be wrong, and nothing in particular would follow.
I notice though that you did not deny the accusation, and most people would deny having a cult leader, which suggests that you are in fact curi. And if you are not, there is not much to be wrong about. Having a cult leader is a vague idea and does not have a “definitely yes” or “definitely no” answer, but your comment exactly matches everything I would want to call having a cult leader.
though no doubt there are people here who will say I am just a sock-puppet of curi’s.
And by the way, even if I were wrong about you being curi or a cult member, you are definitely and absolutely just a sock-puppet of curi’s. That is true even if you are a separate person, since you created this account just to make this comment, and it makes no difference whether curi asked you to do that or if you did it because you care so much about his interests here. Either way, it makes you a sock-puppet, by definition.
Curi knows things that you don’t. He knows that LW is wrong about some very important things and is trying to correct that. These things LW is wrong about are preventing you making progress. And furthermore, LW does not have effective means for error correction, as curi has tried to explain, and that in itself is causing problems.
Curi is not alone thinking LW is majorly wrong in some important areas. Others do too, including David Deutsch, whom curi has had many many discussions with. I do too, though no doubt there are people here who will say I am just a sock-puppet of curi’s.
curi is not some cheap salesman trying to flog ideas. He is trying to save the world. He is trying to do that by getting people to think better. He has spent years thinking about this problem. He has written tens-of-thousands of posts in many forums, sought out the best people to have discussions with, and addresses all criticisms. He has made himself way more open than anyone to receiving criticism. When millions of people think better, big problems like AGI will be solved faster.
curi right now is the world’s leading expert on epistemology. he got that way not by seeking status and prestige or publications in academic journals but by relentlessly pursuing the truth. All the ideas he holds to be true he has subjected to a furnace of criticism and he has changed his ideas when they could not withstand criticism. And if you can show to very high standards why CR is wrong, curi will concede and change his ideas again.
You have no idea about curi’s intellectual history and what he is capable of. He is by far the best thinker I have ever encountered. He has revealed here only a very tiny fraction of what he knows.
Take him seriously. curi is a resource LW needs.
This is so ridiculously bombastic, it’s funny.
So what have this Great Person achieved in real life? Besides learning Ruby and writing some MtG guides? Given that he is Oh So Very Great, surely he must left his mark on the world already. Where is that mark?
If you want to be a serious thinker and make your criticisms better, you really need to improve your research skills. That comment is lazy, wrong, and hostile. Curi invented Paths Forward. He invented Yes/No philosophy, which is an improvement on Popper’s Critical Preferences. He founded Fallible Ideas. He kept Taking Children Seriously alive. He has written millions of words on philosophy and added a lot of clarity to ideas by Popper, Rand, Deutsch, Godwin, and so on. He used his philosophy skills to become a world-class gamer …
Again, you show your ignorance. Are you aware of the battles great ideas and great people often face?Think of the ignorance and hostility that is directed at Karl Popper and Ayn Rand. Think of the silence that met Hugh Everett. These things are common. To quote curi:
Gold! This is solid gold!
Have you considered becoming a stand-up comedian?
Why are you here? What interest do you have in being Less Wrong? The world is burning and you’re helping spread the fire.
I’ve been here awhile. Your account is a few days old. Why are you here?
Whether the world is burning or not is an interesting discussion, but I’m quite sure that better epistemology isn’t going to put out the fire. Writing voluminous amounts of text on a vanity website isn’t going to do it either.
That’s not an answer. That’s an evasion.
Epistemology tells you how to think. Moral philosophy tells you how to live. You cannot even fight the fire without better epistemology and better moral philosophy.
Why do you desire so much to impute bad motives to curi?
The question is ill-posed. Without context it’s too open-ended to have any meaning. But let me say that I’m here not to save the world. Is that sufficient?
No, it doesn’t. It deals with acquiring knowledge. There are other things—like logic—which are quite important to thinking.
I don’t impute bad motives to him. I just think that he is full of himself and has… delusions about his importance and relationship to truth.
Human knowledge acquisition happens by learning. It involves coming up with guesses and error-correcting those guesses via criticism in an evolutionary process. This is going on in your mind all the time, consciously and subconsciously. It is how we are able to think. And knowing how this works enables us to think better. This is epistemology. And the breakthrough in AGI will come from epistemology. At a very high level, we already know what is going on.
Sure, but that’s not sufficient. You need to show that the effect will be significant, suitable for the task at hand, and is the best use of the available resources.
Drinking CNS stimulants (such as coffee) in the morning also enables us to think better. So what?
How do you know that?
This is just more evasion.
You know Yudkowsky also wants to save the world right? That Less Wrong is ultimately about saving the world? If you do not want to save the world, you’re in the wrong place.
Hypothetically, suppose you came across a great man who knew he was great and honestly said so. Suppose also that great man had some true new ideas you were unfamiliar with but that contradicted many ideas you thought were important and true. In what way would your response to him be different to your response to curi?
Fail to ask a clear question, and you will fail to get a clear answer.
Not quite save—EY wants to lessen the chance that the humans will be screwed over by off-the-rails AI.
Oh grasshopper, maybe you will eventually learn that not all things are what they look like and even fewer are what they say the are.
I am disinclined to accept your judgement in this matter :-P
Obviously it depends on the way he presented his new ideas. curi’s ideas are not new and were presented quite badly.
There are two additional points here. One is that knowledge is uncertain, fallible, if you wish. Knowledge about the future (= forecasts) is much more so. Great men rarely know they are great, they may guess at their role in history but should properly be very hesitant about it.
Two, I’m much more likely to meet someone who knew he was Napoleon, the rightful Emperor of France, and honestly said so rather than a truly great man who goes around proclaiming his greatness. I’m sure Napoleon has some great ideas that I’m unfamiliar with—what should my response be?
“He is by far the best thinker I have ever encountered. ”
That is either because you are curi, and incapable of noticing someone more intelligent than yourself, or because curi is your cult leader.
What if you are wrong? What then?
The interesting thing is that the answer is “nothing”. Nothing at all.
Or maybe the answer is that progress can be slow.
If you’re wrong you get to avoidably burn in hell. Your life is at stake, which you call “nothing”.
Are you really going to argue for Pascal’s Wager here?
Tell me which single hell you think you’re avoiding and I’ll point out a few others in which you will end up.
What’s so special about this? If you’re wrong about religion you get to avoidably burn in hell too, in a more literal sense. That does not (and cannot) automatically change your mind about religion, or get you to invest years in the study of all possible religions, in case one of them happens to be true.
I didn’t say it was special, I said his answer (“nothing”) is mistaken. The non-specialness actually makes his wrong answer more appalling.
As Lumifer said, nothing. Even if I were wrong about that, your general position would still be wrong, and nothing in particular would follow.
I notice though that you did not deny the accusation, and most people would deny having a cult leader, which suggests that you are in fact curi. And if you are not, there is not much to be wrong about. Having a cult leader is a vague idea and does not have a “definitely yes” or “definitely no” answer, but your comment exactly matches everything I would want to call having a cult leader.
And by the way, even if I were wrong about you being curi or a cult member, you are definitely and absolutely just a sock-puppet of curi’s. That is true even if you are a separate person, since you created this account just to make this comment, and it makes no difference whether curi asked you to do that or if you did it because you care so much about his interests here. Either way, it makes you a sock-puppet, by definition.
thx for trying, anon.