I agree with the spirit of your point, but I think we would be better served by a category anchored by an example other than a modern gym.
To me the problem is that the modern gym is atomized and transactional: going to the gym is generally a solitary activity, even when you take a class or go with friends, because it’s about your workout and not collaboratively achieving something. There are notable exceptions, but most of the time when I think of people going to the gym I imagine them working out as individuals for individual purposes.
Rationality training takes more. It requires bumping up against other people to see what happens when you “meet the enemy” of reality, and doing that in a productive way requires a kind of collective safety or trust in your fellow participants to both meet you fairly and to support you even while correcting you. Maybe this was a feature of the classic Greek gymnasium, but I find it lacking from most modern gyms.
We do have another kind of place that does regularly engage in this kind of mutual engagement in practice that is not atomized or transactional, and that’s the dojo. The salient example to most people will be the dojo for practicing a martial art, and that’s a place where trust and shared purpose exist. Sure, you might spend time on your own learning forms, but once you have mastered the basics you’ll be engaged with other students head on in situations where, if one of you doesn’t do what you should, one or both of you can get seriously injured. Thus it is with rationality training, although there the injuries are emotional or mental rather than physical.
I haven’t been to a dojo (except briefly as a kid) so don’t have a clear model what it’s about.
Not sure how I feel about the part on “you must face off against an opponent, and you run the risk of getting hurt”. I think I disagree, and might write up why later.
Agree with you and the OP, and note that the difference between my mental trope of gym and dojo is that I can go to the gym whenever, but is a place where practices happen at specifically scheduled times. I can see wanting both.
I agree with the spirit of your point, but I think we would be better served by a category anchored by an example other than a modern gym.
To me the problem is that the modern gym is atomized and transactional: going to the gym is generally a solitary activity, even when you take a class or go with friends, because it’s about your workout and not collaboratively achieving something. There are notable exceptions, but most of the time when I think of people going to the gym I imagine them working out as individuals for individual purposes.
Rationality training takes more. It requires bumping up against other people to see what happens when you “meet the enemy” of reality, and doing that in a productive way requires a kind of collective safety or trust in your fellow participants to both meet you fairly and to support you even while correcting you. Maybe this was a feature of the classic Greek gymnasium, but I find it lacking from most modern gyms.
We do have another kind of place that does regularly engage in this kind of mutual engagement in practice that is not atomized or transactional, and that’s the dojo. The salient example to most people will be the dojo for practicing a martial art, and that’s a place where trust and shared purpose exist. Sure, you might spend time on your own learning forms, but once you have mastered the basics you’ll be engaged with other students head on in situations where, if one of you doesn’t do what you should, one or both of you can get seriously injured. Thus it is with rationality training, although there the injuries are emotional or mental rather than physical.
I haven’t been to a dojo (except briefly as a kid) so don’t have a clear model what it’s about.
Not sure how I feel about the part on “you must face off against an opponent, and you run the risk of getting hurt”. I think I disagree, and might write up why later.
Agree with you and the OP, and note that the difference between my mental trope of gym and dojo is that I can go to the gym whenever, but is a place where practices happen at specifically scheduled times. I can see wanting both.