I have to say I really think its the backwards rationalization. Everyone here eating meat as a strong drive to want to keep eating it, so there is a lot of motivation to argue that way.
As for your first point, I see what you’re saying, but obviously not all vegans think that. A lot of the point is getting the message across to other people as you can’t make the message if you yourself eat meat.
I’m against all animal farms so I really don’t know how to address that. I mean its a pretty easy argument to say they suffer more in the intensive environments. They’re in cages and they’re abused their wholes lives. No room to move and only pain.
I have to say I really think its the backwards rationalization
Well, that’s the obvious outside view. On the other side, even if I am rationalizing, that doesn’t mean I haven’t come up with some good rebuttal.
As for your first point, I see what you’re saying, but obviously not all vegans think that.
Well, I’ve yet to encounter some vegan who claims to be doing more for the animal than abstaining from doing evil. If reduce suffering is the real reason, I see a surprising lack of effective actions.
I mean its a pretty easy argument to say they suffer more in the intensive environments.
It’s pretty easy to disprove that, also. Take chickens, for example. When raised in a farming environment, they have access to better food, better health care, they are not subjected to the pecking order. The only thing they have less is space, but modern farming have ampler cages, and it’s not clear to me that a chicken would trade free roaming in the wild with the more comfortable existence in a chicken farm.
MrMind linked to the underlying moral argument you are making, the duster vs the torturer, which is by no means a settled position. This forum is full of people, such as myself and MrMind, who prefer 3^^^3 dust-in-the-eye events over the prolonged torture of one individual. As applied to this scenario, that means that we do not accept that there exists some N units of chicken happiness that equals 1 unit of human happiness, even for large values of N.
Ah I see the argument! That’s interesting I hadn’t heard of it like that and I would understand if you thought the chicken’s life was near worthless. However, I’m going to challenge you on saying that the chicken’s life is that minimal amount. Chickens are consciousness and feels pain and pleasure. Should you could rationalize and say “oh but its different from humans” but from what cause? There’s nothing to make you think this.
I can move on to chickens, but let’s talk about pigs for instance because they are easier. I find it very hard to believe that a pig’s life is worth this minimal amount that you say. Pigs are around the intelligence of dogs. They can problem solve, they can have emotional bonds, and they have preferences. They experience life and are happy on a bright breezy day or they suffer if they are abused as they are. Going back to dogs, dogs have been shown to be empathetic. This has been shown in how they understand how to deceive. They will lead humans to less reward if they are in turn rewarded less. I may have to find this study. The other thing that was shown recently is that dogs are self aware. The mirror test is flawed and not all animals go primarily by sight. Dogs for instance go by smell and hearing. There was a test on smell that showed that dogs are self aware as they understand their own scent versus that of another dog. This leads to the conclusion that we should do more tests of different kinds because we were leaving out key information.
Also, pigs are some entity. Its easy to label them. When ‘pigs’ come to mind you just think of the average pig, rather than the total of a bunch of different individuals which allows you to de-empathize with them. Referring them as its also allows you to de-empathize.
As for chickens, they are probably less emotional than pigs, but they are not brainless as you would guess. They have internal lives and get joy from things and suffer as well. There was a study where chickens were shown to exhibit self control to gain access to more food if they self controlled.
Hrm, I think you’re still not getting it. It’s not that a chicken, pig, or cow’s life is worth some minimal but comparable amount. Because even then there would be some threshold were N chickens, pigs, or cow happiness-meters (for some suitably large N) would be worth 1 human’s. The position is that they are utterly incomparable for the purpose of moral statements. This is a non-utilitarian position. What is rejected is the additive property: you can’t take two bad events, add their “badness” together and argue that they are worse than some other single event that is by itself rated worse than one of the originals.
Some non-utilitarians say that certain utilities are of different classes and incomparable. Others say that utilities are comparable but don’t add linearly. Others don’t know but simply say that torturing to prevent dust in the eyes of any number of people just plain doesn’t feel right and any moral framework that allows that must be suspect, without offering an alternative.
In any of those cases, establishing the moral value of an animal is not obviously relevant to whether it is moral for humans to eat them.
It’s not that a chicken, pig, or cow’s life is worth some minimal but comparable amount. Because even then there would be some threshold were N chickens, pigs, or cow happiness-meters (for some suitably large N) would be worth 1 human’s.
I’m arguing they are comparable. See, I don’t think the N is that large.
is not obviously relevant to whether it is moral for humans to eat them.
At this point I don’t know whether you are not engaging honestly or purposefully trolling. Either way this discussion is without purpose, and I have no interest to engage further.
I have to say I really think its the backwards rationalization. Everyone here eating meat as a strong drive to want to keep eating it, so there is a lot of motivation to argue that way.
As for your first point, I see what you’re saying, but obviously not all vegans think that. A lot of the point is getting the message across to other people as you can’t make the message if you yourself eat meat.
I’m against all animal farms so I really don’t know how to address that. I mean its a pretty easy argument to say they suffer more in the intensive environments. They’re in cages and they’re abused their wholes lives. No room to move and only pain.
Well, that’s the obvious outside view. On the other side, even if I am rationalizing, that doesn’t mean I haven’t come up with some good rebuttal.
Well, I’ve yet to encounter some vegan who claims to be doing more for the animal than abstaining from doing evil. If reduce suffering is the real reason, I see a surprising lack of effective actions.
It’s pretty easy to disprove that, also. Take chickens, for example. When raised in a farming environment, they have access to better food, better health care, they are not subjected to the pecking order. The only thing they have less is space, but modern farming have ampler cages, and it’s not clear to me that a chicken would trade free roaming in the wild with the more comfortable existence in a chicken farm.
MrMind linked to the underlying moral argument you are making, the duster vs the torturer, which is by no means a settled position. This forum is full of people, such as myself and MrMind, who prefer 3^^^3 dust-in-the-eye events over the prolonged torture of one individual. As applied to this scenario, that means that we do not accept that there exists some N units of chicken happiness that equals 1 unit of human happiness, even for large values of N.
Ah I see the argument! That’s interesting I hadn’t heard of it like that and I would understand if you thought the chicken’s life was near worthless. However, I’m going to challenge you on saying that the chicken’s life is that minimal amount. Chickens are consciousness and feels pain and pleasure. Should you could rationalize and say “oh but its different from humans” but from what cause? There’s nothing to make you think this.
I can move on to chickens, but let’s talk about pigs for instance because they are easier. I find it very hard to believe that a pig’s life is worth this minimal amount that you say. Pigs are around the intelligence of dogs. They can problem solve, they can have emotional bonds, and they have preferences. They experience life and are happy on a bright breezy day or they suffer if they are abused as they are. Going back to dogs, dogs have been shown to be empathetic. This has been shown in how they understand how to deceive. They will lead humans to less reward if they are in turn rewarded less. I may have to find this study. The other thing that was shown recently is that dogs are self aware. The mirror test is flawed and not all animals go primarily by sight. Dogs for instance go by smell and hearing. There was a test on smell that showed that dogs are self aware as they understand their own scent versus that of another dog. This leads to the conclusion that we should do more tests of different kinds because we were leaving out key information.
Also, pigs are some entity. Its easy to label them. When ‘pigs’ come to mind you just think of the average pig, rather than the total of a bunch of different individuals which allows you to de-empathize with them. Referring them as its also allows you to de-empathize.
As for chickens, they are probably less emotional than pigs, but they are not brainless as you would guess. They have internal lives and get joy from things and suffer as well. There was a study where chickens were shown to exhibit self control to gain access to more food if they self controlled.
Hrm, I think you’re still not getting it. It’s not that a chicken, pig, or cow’s life is worth some minimal but comparable amount. Because even then there would be some threshold were N chickens, pigs, or cow happiness-meters (for some suitably large N) would be worth 1 human’s. The position is that they are utterly incomparable for the purpose of moral statements. This is a non-utilitarian position. What is rejected is the additive property: you can’t take two bad events, add their “badness” together and argue that they are worse than some other single event that is by itself rated worse than one of the originals.
Some non-utilitarians say that certain utilities are of different classes and incomparable. Others say that utilities are comparable but don’t add linearly. Others don’t know but simply say that torturing to prevent dust in the eyes of any number of people just plain doesn’t feel right and any moral framework that allows that must be suspect, without offering an alternative.
In any of those cases, establishing the moral value of an animal is not obviously relevant to whether it is moral for humans to eat them.
I’m arguing they are comparable. See, I don’t think the N is that large.
Sure it is. That’s the crux of the matter.
In non-utilitarian morality 1 + 1 =/= 2. Sometimes 1 + 1 = 1. Does that make sense?
Yes it does. I’m just arguing that they are comparable.
At this point I don’t know whether you are not engaging honestly or purposefully trolling. Either way this discussion is without purpose, and I have no interest to engage further.