you would expect a symmetry between suffering and joy, but in our world, it seems to lean towards suffering (The suffering of an animal being eaten vs. the joy of the animal eating it. People suffer from chronic pain but not from chronic pleasure, etc.).
Why do you think that life leans towards suffering? I’m not convinced by the argument that the experience of being eaten as prey is worse than the experience of eating prey; that just illustrates that one specific and short type of experience is asymmetric. I’m aware that, due to effects like negativity bias, individual negative experiences are likely more impactful than positive ones.
However, to make the case that the life of an individual or species leans towards suffering, you’d have to make the case that, on average, the respective integral of lifetime experiences is negative. To make the further case that life in general leans towards suffering, those experience integrals would further have to be weighted by degree of consciousness (or ability to experience joy & suffering, or something).
“I’m not convinced by the argument that the experience of being eaten as prey is worse than the experience of eating prey”
Would you see the experience for yourself of being eaten alive Let’s say even having a dog chewing off your hand as equivalent hedonistically to eating a steak? (Long term damage aside)
I don’t think most people would agree to have both of these experiences, but would rather avoid both, which means the suffering is much worse compared to the pleasure of eating meat.
I agree with the proposed methodology, but I have a strong suspicion that the sum will be negative.
I’m not convinced by the argument that the experience of being eaten as prey is worse than the experience of eating prey; that just illustrates that one specific and short type of experience is asymmetric.
You only quoted part of my sentence, and I think you misunderstood my point as a result. I’m wholly aware that being eaten is worse than eating, I just don’t think it particularly matters.
The key point is whether the median moment is positive, negative, or neutral. That will likely dominate any calculation. Not brief extreme experiences, whether positive or negative.
You’re right about my misunderstanding. Thanks for the clarification.
I don’t think the median moment is the Correct KPI if the distribution has high variance, and I believe this is the case with pain and pleasure experiences. Extreme suffering is so bad that most people will need a lot of “normal” time to compensate for it. I would think that most people will not trade torture to extend their lives in 1:1 and probably not even in 1:10 ratios. (E.g. you get tortured for X time and get your life extended by aX time in return)
Why do you think that life leans towards suffering? I’m not convinced by the argument that the experience of being eaten as prey is worse than the experience of eating prey; that just illustrates that one specific and short type of experience is asymmetric. I’m aware that, due to effects like negativity bias, individual negative experiences are likely more impactful than positive ones.
However, to make the case that the life of an individual or species leans towards suffering, you’d have to make the case that, on average, the respective integral of lifetime experiences is negative. To make the further case that life in general leans towards suffering, those experience integrals would further have to be weighted by degree of consciousness (or ability to experience joy & suffering, or something).
“I’m not convinced by the argument that the experience of being eaten as prey is worse than the experience of eating prey”
Would you see the experience for yourself of being eaten alive Let’s say even having a dog chewing off your hand as equivalent hedonistically to eating a steak? (Long term damage aside)
I don’t think most people would agree to have both of these experiences, but would rather avoid both, which means the suffering is much worse compared to the pleasure of eating meat.
I agree with the proposed methodology, but I have a strong suspicion that the sum will be negative.
You only quoted part of my sentence, and I think you misunderstood my point as a result. I’m wholly aware that being eaten is worse than eating, I just don’t think it particularly matters.
The key point is whether the median moment is positive, negative, or neutral. That will likely dominate any calculation. Not brief extreme experiences, whether positive or negative.
You’re right about my misunderstanding. Thanks for the clarification.
I don’t think the median moment is the Correct KPI if the distribution has high variance, and I believe this is the case with pain and pleasure experiences. Extreme suffering is so bad that most people will need a lot of “normal” time to compensate for it. I would think that most people will not trade torture to extend their lives in 1:1 and probably not even in 1:10 ratios. (E.g. you get tortured for X time and get your life extended by aX time in return)
see for example:
A Happy Life Afterward Doesn’t Make Up for Torture—The Washington Post