didn’t expect these concepts to be named here, but yes, I see them as very relevant in this context. Intuitively Negative Utilitarianism in particular. It doesn’t seem much of a stretch to argue that things are already way beyond the threshold, and that it is too late to salvage the situation?
If you have more to add in this context, I would be interested to know more. To look at the issue directly feels very taxing and draining indeed, and the experience I have had with talking with a misanthrope, did convince me that they were able to look at parts of existence that I at that point really disliked getting close to.
I agree that looking at reality honestly is probably quite detrimental to happiness or mental health. That’s why many people opt out of these conversations using methods like downvoting, sneering, or denying basic facts about reality. Their aim is likely to avoid the realization that we might be living in a world that is somewhat hellish. I’ve seen this avoidance many times, even in rationalist spaces. Although rationalists are generally better at facing it than others, and some like Brian Tomasik and Nate Soares even address it directly.
I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about these issues – not necessarily a wise choice. I’d humbly advise you to reconsider going down this rabbit hole. I haven’t penned down my conclusions yet, which are a bit idiosyncratic (I don’t strictly identify as a negative utilitarian). But to summarize, if you believe that conscious experience is paramount and that pain and suffering are inherently bad, then our world is probably net negative. This perspective isn’t just about humans; it’s about foundational principles like the laws of physics and evolution.
It doesn’t seem much of a stretch to argue that things are already way beyond the threshold and that it is too late to salvage the situation?
Interestingly, I still harbor hope. Maybe, for consciousness to emerge from nothing, life had to endure the brutal phase of Darwinian Evolution. But the future could be so bright that all the preceding suffering might be viewed as a worthy sacrifice, not a tragedy. Think of the pain a mother experiences during childbirth as a metaphor (but this birth has lasted millions of years). Alternatively, consciousness might vanish, or the world could become truly hellish, even more than its current state. The outcome isn’t clear, but I wouldn’t exclude any of these options.
I did read the Ecclesiastes a lot growing up, as well as the Proverbs. (From the old testament in the bible) In many ways I can understand and relate to the points of Salomon. There is a lot of rest in the fact that things can be beyond our immediate control. Even when we can try to change certain things, we don’t use unnecessary amounts of force or will to MAKE IT FIT!
With regard to health, self-compassion, receiving and understanding compassion is the way I see beyond the scary depths of For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and as knowledge grows, grief increases. I mean, to the observer you are still ‘engaging’ with suffering and pain directly, and so it doesn’t seem to work aka remove the suffering—but there is an internal shift, and also a behavioral one.
I harbor a lot of hope, but we have also noted a lot of other emotions, emotions that have been very hard to understand at first. The best way we have been able to make sense of it so far, is to look at our lives as one big farewell. Farewell to living here, to life, to trying to make things work, to all the hopes and wishes we have, had and will have. (Deftly avoid to talk about the more esoteric aspects ;)
We haven’t found anywhere where we believe our energy fits. And I am not talking about What is crooked cannot be straightened, and what is lacking cannot be counted. It is more of the notion that wanting to have this kind of reciprocity, is unwanted/wasted here. When people talk about A.I., or returning to Source, or Jesus’s embrace, it isn’t like we can’t relate, but even if it truly, truly pains me to feel it, this doesn’t feel right to me. It is a tentative roadmap, but as of now, it is also the one that fits massively better than the alternatives. There is still a lot we do not know, and we’ll see how things pan out.
Well, many might believe that automatically means we want to die—but it is the opposite. We want to live more, but also oppose death less. We don’t seem to fit—and there is also the thing about wanting to fit. I believe it should be mutual reciprocity.
Thank you for your response, Caerulea. Many of the emotions and thoughts you mentioned resonate with me. I truly hope you find peace and a sense of belonging. For myself, I’ve found solace in understanding that my happiness isn’t really determined by external factors, and I’m not to blame or responsible for the way the world is. It’s possible to find happiness in your own bubble, provided you have the necessary resources – which can sometimes be a challenge
Some things I just let myself struggle with—like finding the right food to eat, or how to become more healthy, or how to just be a bit more content, or allow discontent without reacting too much etc. I do see those concerns as connected to the abstract. They fit together—but as of now, they aren’t really balanced of course, but yeah, I hope I find more people to share this journey with, and I wish you well too. See you around.
It doesn’t seem much of a stretch to argue that things are already way beyond the threshold, and that it is too late to salvage the situation?
I think this is a failure of imagination due to the brain’s lack of ability to envision the scale of the universe as it really is. Both on the negative side, and on the positive.
Thank you Ratios,
didn’t expect these concepts to be named here, but yes, I see them as very relevant in this context. Intuitively Negative Utilitarianism in particular. It doesn’t seem much of a stretch to argue that things are already way beyond the threshold, and that it is too late to salvage the situation?
If you have more to add in this context, I would be interested to know more. To look at the issue directly feels very taxing and draining indeed, and the experience I have had with talking with a misanthrope, did convince me that they were able to look at parts of existence that I at that point really disliked getting close to.
Kindly,
Caerulea-Lawrence
I agree that looking at reality honestly is probably quite detrimental to happiness or mental health. That’s why many people opt out of these conversations using methods like downvoting, sneering, or denying basic facts about reality. Their aim is likely to avoid the realization that we might be living in a world that is somewhat hellish. I’ve seen this avoidance many times, even in rationalist spaces. Although rationalists are generally better at facing it than others, and some like Brian Tomasik and Nate Soares even address it directly.
I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about these issues – not necessarily a wise choice. I’d humbly advise you to reconsider going down this rabbit hole. I haven’t penned down my conclusions yet, which are a bit idiosyncratic (I don’t strictly identify as a negative utilitarian). But to summarize, if you believe that conscious experience is paramount and that pain and suffering are inherently bad, then our world is probably net negative. This perspective isn’t just about humans; it’s about foundational principles like the laws of physics and evolution.
Interestingly, I still harbor hope. Maybe, for consciousness to emerge from nothing, life had to endure the brutal phase of Darwinian Evolution. But the future could be so bright that all the preceding suffering might be viewed as a worthy sacrifice, not a tragedy. Think of the pain a mother experiences during childbirth as a metaphor (but this birth has lasted millions of years). Alternatively, consciousness might vanish, or the world could become truly hellish, even more than its current state. The outcome isn’t clear, but I wouldn’t exclude any of these options.
Hello Ratios,
I did read the Ecclesiastes a lot growing up, as well as the Proverbs. (From the old testament in the bible) In many ways I can understand and relate to the points of Salomon. There is a lot of rest in the fact that things can be beyond our immediate control. Even when we can try to change certain things, we don’t use unnecessary amounts of force or will to MAKE IT FIT!
With regard to health, self-compassion, receiving and understanding compassion is the way I see beyond the scary depths of For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and as knowledge grows, grief increases. I mean, to the observer you are still ‘engaging’ with suffering and pain directly, and so it doesn’t seem to work aka remove the suffering—but there is an internal shift, and also a behavioral one.
I harbor a lot of hope, but we have also noted a lot of other emotions, emotions that have been very hard to understand at first. The best way we have been able to make sense of it so far, is to look at our lives as one big farewell. Farewell to living here, to life, to trying to make things work, to all the hopes and wishes we have, had and will have. (Deftly avoid to talk about the more esoteric aspects ;)
We haven’t found anywhere where we believe our energy fits. And I am not talking about What is crooked cannot be straightened, and what is lacking cannot be counted. It is more of the notion that wanting to have this kind of reciprocity, is unwanted/wasted here. When people talk about A.I., or returning to Source, or Jesus’s embrace, it isn’t like we can’t relate, but even if it truly, truly pains me to feel it, this doesn’t feel right to me.
It is a tentative roadmap, but as of now, it is also the one that fits massively better than the alternatives. There is still a lot we do not know, and we’ll see how things pan out.
Well, many might believe that automatically means we want to die—but it is the opposite. We want to live more, but also oppose death less. We don’t seem to fit—and there is also the thing about wanting to fit. I believe it should be mutual reciprocity.
Kindly,
Caerulea-Lawrence
Thank you for your response, Caerulea. Many of the emotions and thoughts you mentioned resonate with me. I truly hope you find peace and a sense of belonging. For myself, I’ve found solace in understanding that my happiness isn’t really determined by external factors, and I’m not to blame or responsible for the way the world is. It’s possible to find happiness in your own bubble, provided you have the necessary resources – which can sometimes be a challenge
I am grateful you say that, Ratios.
Some things I just let myself struggle with—like finding the right food to eat, or how to become more healthy, or how to just be a bit more content, or allow discontent without reacting too much etc. I do see those concerns as connected to the abstract. They fit together—but as of now, they aren’t really balanced of course, but yeah, I hope I find more people to share this journey with, and I wish you well too. See you around.
Caerulea :)
I think this is a failure of imagination due to the brain’s lack of ability to envision the scale of the universe as it really is. Both on the negative side, and on the positive.