Great post. I had started reading through this site randomly while I got more and more into HPMOR, which a friend recommended, and having a little list of posts to start will most probably prove helpful.
I would like to mention that the thing about this community I found the most astonishing was a comment that read something like “Edit: After reading some responses I’ve changed my mind and this comment no longer respresents my beliefs.” I did not even know that it was possible for a human being to be so greatful and humble upon being proven wrong. And humility is something I most definitely need to learn, and I suspect I will be able to do so here. In fact, I already did, for I acknowledged the fact that someone outside my field (pure math, until recently) has something to teach me. Yes, I am (was?) THAT arrogant in a deep level, but here and now I just feel like a child, craving to learn the art of rationality.
To me it feels easier to admit mistakes in an environment which does not punish admitting mistakes by loss of status. Where people cooperate to find the truth, instead of competing for image of infallibility.
Just saying that how one reacts on being shown errors is partially a function of their personality, but also partially a function of their environment. Changing the environment can help, although sometimes bad habits remain.
I quite agree, but now I’m wondering how could I change my own environment -not by replacing it, but by changing people’s reactions- . It seems the responsability to do so lays upon my shoulders since I am the one who intends to live differently. Do you believe it’d be right to attempt to change people’s reactions (if I knew a way), or should I acknowledge the possibility that they are just happy the way they are, and should just let them be?
should I acknowledge the possibility that they are just happy the way they are
They probably are. Also, even if hypothetically becoming super rational should be an improvement for everyone, your ability to change them is limited, and it’s uncertain whether that degree of change you could realistically achieve would be an improvement.
Unless you have superior manipulation skills, I believe it is extremely difficult to change people, if they don’t want to. You push; they welcome the challenge and push hard in the opposite direction. Unfortunately, defending your own opinion, however stupid it is, is a favorite hobby of too many otherwise intelligent people. It could be a very frustrating experience for you, and an enjoyment for them.
At least my experiments in this area seem hugely negative. If people don’t want to be rational, you are just giving them more clever arguments they can use in debates.
I hate to admit it, but “people never change” seems to be a very good heuristic, even if it is not literally true. (I hate it because of the outside view it provides for my own attempts at self-improvement. That’s why I usually say “people never change unless they want to”, but the problem is, wanting to change, and declaring that you want to change, are two different things.)
Also, I noticed that when you are trying to change, many people around you get anxious and try to bring you back to the “old you”. If you want to change your own behavior, it is easier with completely new people, who don’t know the “old you”, and accept your new behavior as your standard one.
I know it would be hard, and most likely nearly impossible to change people without a very good idea very well executed, but perhaps a tiny possibility is reason enough to attempt to do it nonetheless. I wish to take your advice on trying to change myself among new people, and so I ask if you have any suggestion on a particular environment on which to try to do so.
now I’m wondering how could I change my own environment -not by replacing it, but by changing people’s reactions-
People try to do that all the time. One of the best ways is to simply ask other people to change their reactions, and explain why—some people will listen (especially if you point out how the new environment will benefit them as well) while others won’t. (Mind you, even the ones that listen will probably be slow to change their reactions… habits are not easily broken)
I’d also suggest, at the same time, changing your reactions to match your preferred environment; give everyone around you an example to follow.
If you have a position of authority (e.g. a university lecturer in a classroom) you could even use that authority to mandate how students are allowed to react—again, it would help to point out how the ability to change your mind is helpful to the students.
Do you believe it’d be right to attempt to change people’s reactions
I think that it can be right to attempt to change peoples’ reactions, if that change is to their benefit and the means employed to effect the change are ethical (i.e. ask them to change, don’t put a gun to their head and force them to change).
Just asking seems a little to plain to work, but I do know some very few people who would listen. The thing is that, by doing so, they are somewhat already reacting rationally. Now I’m thinking maybe I should gather a couple of those people and someone who is less inclined to change his mind and try to “convert” him by providing an environment in which it is ok to be mistaken and good to be corrected… Then I just repeat this process inductively until we take over he world, don’t I?
If you have a position of authority (e.g. a university lecturer in a classroom) you could even use that authority to mandate how students are allowed to react...
I don’t have it, but I will have it soon enough and see how it goes.
If the simplest solution works, then, well, it works. And if it doesn’t… I don’t really see any negative consequences of failure.
Now I’m thinking maybe I should gather a couple of those people and someone who is less inclined to change his mind and try to “convert” him by providing an environment in which it is ok to be mistaken and good to be corrected… Then I just repeat this process inductively until we take over he world, don’t I?
It’ll work for some people, not for others. You could try, I guess, but people change slowly so it could take a while.
I think that trying to force it could have ethical problems. But inviting someone to have a chat with you and your friends shouldn’t have any such problems.
I don’t have it, but I will have it soon enough and see how it goes.
Regards from Argentina,
Great post. I had started reading through this site randomly while I got more and more into HPMOR, which a friend recommended, and having a little list of posts to start will most probably prove helpful.
I would like to mention that the thing about this community I found the most astonishing was a comment that read something like “Edit: After reading some responses I’ve changed my mind and this comment no longer respresents my beliefs.” I did not even know that it was possible for a human being to be so greatful and humble upon being proven wrong. And humility is something I most definitely need to learn, and I suspect I will be able to do so here. In fact, I already did, for I acknowledged the fact that someone outside my field (pure math, until recently) has something to teach me. Yes, I am (was?) THAT arrogant in a deep level, but here and now I just feel like a child, craving to learn the art of rationality.
Thank you all for what this site constitutes!
To me it feels easier to admit mistakes in an environment which does not punish admitting mistakes by loss of status. Where people cooperate to find the truth, instead of competing for image of infallibility.
Just saying that how one reacts on being shown errors is partially a function of their personality, but also partially a function of their environment. Changing the environment can help, although sometimes bad habits remain.
I quite agree, but now I’m wondering how could I change my own environment -not by replacing it, but by changing people’s reactions- . It seems the responsability to do so lays upon my shoulders since I am the one who intends to live differently. Do you believe it’d be right to attempt to change people’s reactions (if I knew a way), or should I acknowledge the possibility that they are just happy the way they are, and should just let them be?
They probably are. Also, even if hypothetically becoming super rational should be an improvement for everyone, your ability to change them is limited, and it’s uncertain whether that degree of change you could realistically achieve would be an improvement.
Unless you have superior manipulation skills, I believe it is extremely difficult to change people, if they don’t want to. You push; they welcome the challenge and push hard in the opposite direction. Unfortunately, defending your own opinion, however stupid it is, is a favorite hobby of too many otherwise intelligent people. It could be a very frustrating experience for you, and an enjoyment for them.
At least my experiments in this area seem hugely negative. If people don’t want to be rational, you are just giving them more clever arguments they can use in debates.
I hate to admit it, but “people never change” seems to be a very good heuristic, even if it is not literally true. (I hate it because of the outside view it provides for my own attempts at self-improvement. That’s why I usually say “people never change unless they want to”, but the problem is, wanting to change, and declaring that you want to change, are two different things.)
Also, I noticed that when you are trying to change, many people around you get anxious and try to bring you back to the “old you”. If you want to change your own behavior, it is easier with completely new people, who don’t know the “old you”, and accept your new behavior as your standard one.
I know it would be hard, and most likely nearly impossible to change people without a very good idea very well executed, but perhaps a tiny possibility is reason enough to attempt to do it nonetheless. I wish to take your advice on trying to change myself among new people, and so I ask if you have any suggestion on a particular environment on which to try to do so.
The obvious new environment is the nearest LW meetup, if available. Otherwise… I don’t know, maybe some public lectures.
(I am not the right person to ask about meeting new people. My own social sphere is very small.)
People try to do that all the time. One of the best ways is to simply ask other people to change their reactions, and explain why—some people will listen (especially if you point out how the new environment will benefit them as well) while others won’t. (Mind you, even the ones that listen will probably be slow to change their reactions… habits are not easily broken)
I’d also suggest, at the same time, changing your reactions to match your preferred environment; give everyone around you an example to follow.
If you have a position of authority (e.g. a university lecturer in a classroom) you could even use that authority to mandate how students are allowed to react—again, it would help to point out how the ability to change your mind is helpful to the students.
I think that it can be right to attempt to change peoples’ reactions, if that change is to their benefit and the means employed to effect the change are ethical (i.e. ask them to change, don’t put a gun to their head and force them to change).
Just asking seems a little to plain to work, but I do know some very few people who would listen. The thing is that, by doing so, they are somewhat already reacting rationally. Now I’m thinking maybe I should gather a couple of those people and someone who is less inclined to change his mind and try to “convert” him by providing an environment in which it is ok to be mistaken and good to be corrected… Then I just repeat this process inductively until we take over he world, don’t I?
I don’t have it, but I will have it soon enough and see how it goes.
If the simplest solution works, then, well, it works. And if it doesn’t… I don’t really see any negative consequences of failure.
It’ll work for some people, not for others. You could try, I guess, but people change slowly so it could take a while.
I think that trying to force it could have ethical problems. But inviting someone to have a chat with you and your friends shouldn’t have any such problems.
Good luck!