That’s fair; maybe I didn’t understand the hypothetical. If the person is so rich that they are providing 100% of the funding for the government, my criticism doesn’t apply. If you can fund the services that a government would provide on your own, I can see the case for opting out. In practice, I don’t think that applies to more than a handful of people. If the argument is that the top 0.01% richest people and a few loners in the woods are being unjustly prevented from opting out of taxation, I’m willing to concede that point. I don’t think it changes the overall picture that the overwhelming majority of people would not want to opt out.
Also, I wasn’t really talking about an organized uprising in terms of why the person opting out would need protection. I assume there are plenty of criminals who already exist that would enjoy the chance to engage in some theft without risking jail time. The community would just put up a sign outside the rich person’s property saying “this house is not protected by community laws or police”. Maybe if the rich person wants to use a public street, make them wear a shirt that says “this person does not have the protection or backing of any nation” to ensure that they’re not free riding on the police protection that they’re opting out of. None of that involves the community threatening violence; it’s just withdrawing protection.
Furthermore, legal protection is just one of many services that the state provides. At the most basic level, it’s pretty hard to get around without using public roads, and it’s pretty hard to stay rich if the government decides you can’t do business in its territory.
I think there is some academic merit in taking this example to the extreme and assuming that the rich person is responsible to 100% of the community’s resources, and they alone can fund the its entire activity, and if they secede alone the community is left with nothing. They can’t protect people in their streets because they can’t afford a police. They can’t punish criminals because they can’t afford a prison. They may be left with their old roads, but without maintenance they quickly wear out while the rich person can build new ones. Their permission to do business means nothing because they have no means to enforce it (no police) - they can’t even make a credible embargo because the rich person is the only one you can offer jobs and the only one who has goods to sell, so the incentive to break the embargo is huge. The rich person has all the power and zero incentive to give in to the community which will take it away and give their “fair share” of 1100 of it in return.
Of course—this extreme scenario never happens in real life, because in real life there are always alternatives. There are more rich people, to begin with, so no single rich person can hold all the power. People can start their own business, breaking the 100% dependency on the rich class from our example. And—maybe most importantly—modern society has a huge middle class that holds (as a socioeconomic class) a considerable share of the power.
So, a real life rich person cannot have a full Shapley value like our hypothetical rich person, and the poor people’s Shapley value is more than zero. Still—a rich person’s Shapley value is much much higher than a poor person’s, and therefore there is a point where taxation is heavy enough to make it worthwhile for them to secede.
I agree in theory; I just don’t think that the hypothetical bears much resemblance to reality. The tax burden of the richest individuals in the US is just a tiny rounding error in the federal budget. Even if you could stop the tax payments of every billionaire in the country, the federal government would barely notice the difference. You’d have to stop the tax payments of millions of people before it would start having a noticeable impact on the government ability to enforce its will.
Also, on a practical level, I think that the downside of losing membership in the state is so enormous that it would outweigh almost any tax burden. Just to start with, you would lose the ability to enter into most countries, since you would not have a valid passport. Even if your former government is willing to let you travel through their territory to leave your property (something which they are under no obligation to do), where are you going to go? How are you going to maintain your income? Realistically, how high would the tax burden have to be for you to accept those costs of secession?
Realistically, how high would the tax burden have to be for you to accept those costs of secession?
France’s 2015 taxes of 75% made rich people secede, so we can take that as a supremum on the minimal tax burden that can make people secede. Of course—France’s rich didn’t have to go live in the woods—they had the option to go to other countries. Also, they did not have the option to not go to any country, because all the land on earth is divided between the countries.
I agree that the main benefits for the rich to remain in under the state’s rule and pay taxes is to be able to do business with its citizens. And of course—to be able to pass through the land—otherwise they won’t be able to physically do said business. So the core question is:
Does the state have the right to prevent its citizens from doing business with whoever they want?
They practice that power—that’s a fact. They send the police to stop business that’s not licensed by the state. But should this be considered an act of violence, or as an act of protecting their property?
France’s 2015 taxes of 75% made rich people secede, so we can take that as a supremum on the minimal tax burden that can make people secede. Of course—France’s rich didn’t have to go live in the woods—they had the option to go to other countries. Also, they did not have the option to not go to any country, because all the land on earth is divided between the countries.
Right, but they’re presumably moving to another country where they’re still paying taxes and participating in the state. If they had the option, do you think that they would prefer to opt out of the state completely (with all the associated downsides), rather than just moving to a country with somewhat lower taxes?
Does the state have the right to prevent its citizens from doing business with whoever they want?
I think we can sidestep this question, because I don’t think the state even has to do this with force. If they just say “anyone who does business with Person X loses access to roads, police, courts, sanitation, etc.”, that’s a very strong disincentive.
That’s fair; maybe I didn’t understand the hypothetical. If the person is so rich that they are providing 100% of the funding for the government, my criticism doesn’t apply. If you can fund the services that a government would provide on your own, I can see the case for opting out. In practice, I don’t think that applies to more than a handful of people. If the argument is that the top 0.01% richest people and a few loners in the woods are being unjustly prevented from opting out of taxation, I’m willing to concede that point. I don’t think it changes the overall picture that the overwhelming majority of people would not want to opt out.
Also, I wasn’t really talking about an organized uprising in terms of why the person opting out would need protection. I assume there are plenty of criminals who already exist that would enjoy the chance to engage in some theft without risking jail time. The community would just put up a sign outside the rich person’s property saying “this house is not protected by community laws or police”. Maybe if the rich person wants to use a public street, make them wear a shirt that says “this person does not have the protection or backing of any nation” to ensure that they’re not free riding on the police protection that they’re opting out of. None of that involves the community threatening violence; it’s just withdrawing protection.
Furthermore, legal protection is just one of many services that the state provides. At the most basic level, it’s pretty hard to get around without using public roads, and it’s pretty hard to stay rich if the government decides you can’t do business in its territory.
I think there is some academic merit in taking this example to the extreme and assuming that the rich person is responsible to 100% of the community’s resources, and they alone can fund the its entire activity, and if they secede alone the community is left with nothing. They can’t protect people in their streets because they can’t afford a police. They can’t punish criminals because they can’t afford a prison. They may be left with their old roads, but without maintenance they quickly wear out while the rich person can build new ones. Their permission to do business means nothing because they have no means to enforce it (no police) - they can’t even make a credible embargo because the rich person is the only one you can offer jobs and the only one who has goods to sell, so the incentive to break the embargo is huge. The rich person has all the power and zero incentive to give in to the community which will take it away and give their “fair share” of 1100 of it in return.
Of course—this extreme scenario never happens in real life, because in real life there are always alternatives. There are more rich people, to begin with, so no single rich person can hold all the power. People can start their own business, breaking the 100% dependency on the rich class from our example. And—maybe most importantly—modern society has a huge middle class that holds (as a socioeconomic class) a considerable share of the power.
So, a real life rich person cannot have a full Shapley value like our hypothetical rich person, and the poor people’s Shapley value is more than zero. Still—a rich person’s Shapley value is much much higher than a poor person’s, and therefore there is a point where taxation is heavy enough to make it worthwhile for them to secede.
I agree in theory; I just don’t think that the hypothetical bears much resemblance to reality. The tax burden of the richest individuals in the US is just a tiny rounding error in the federal budget. Even if you could stop the tax payments of every billionaire in the country, the federal government would barely notice the difference. You’d have to stop the tax payments of millions of people before it would start having a noticeable impact on the government ability to enforce its will.
Also, on a practical level, I think that the downside of losing membership in the state is so enormous that it would outweigh almost any tax burden. Just to start with, you would lose the ability to enter into most countries, since you would not have a valid passport. Even if your former government is willing to let you travel through their territory to leave your property (something which they are under no obligation to do), where are you going to go? How are you going to maintain your income? Realistically, how high would the tax burden have to be for you to accept those costs of secession?
France’s 2015 taxes of 75% made rich people secede, so we can take that as a supremum on the minimal tax burden that can make people secede. Of course—France’s rich didn’t have to go live in the woods—they had the option to go to other countries. Also, they did not have the option to not go to any country, because all the land on earth is divided between the countries.
I agree that the main benefits for the rich to remain in under the state’s rule and pay taxes is to be able to do business with its citizens. And of course—to be able to pass through the land—otherwise they won’t be able to physically do said business. So the core question is:
Does the state have the right to prevent its citizens from doing business with whoever they want?
They practice that power—that’s a fact. They send the police to stop business that’s not licensed by the state. But should this be considered an act of violence, or as an act of protecting their property?
Right, but they’re presumably moving to another country where they’re still paying taxes and participating in the state. If they had the option, do you think that they would prefer to opt out of the state completely (with all the associated downsides), rather than just moving to a country with somewhat lower taxes?
I think we can sidestep this question, because I don’t think the state even has to do this with force. If they just say “anyone who does business with Person X loses access to roads, police, courts, sanitation, etc.”, that’s a very strong disincentive.