Thanks, and I appreciated Paul’s article—very interesting and insightful.
Let me try to clarify --
One of the issues causing confusion is that the definition of rationality is not commonly accepted/subject to some dispute. My understanding of EY’s perspective on the definition of rationality is based on his article: What do we mean by rationality
EY is saying that applying rationality yields a normative answer—and that LW is not receptive to a different idea, such as a model where an argument can be rational but still not be the “correct”/”true” answer. My argument is that rationality, as EY defines it, does not work with respect to politics because political issues do not have correct answers (i’ll get to why shortly). So I don’t disagree with your point that politics can be discussed rationally—i just have a different definition of rationality when it comes to politics.
I read Paul’s article—it was very good—i have previously considered the idea that in politics or religion, everyone is an “expert” and the idea of identities intertwined with people’s positions—no doubt insightful, but i think its incomplete. (i also note that his argument that politics has definite answers sometimes is baffling—the cost of government policy is NEVER certain—simply because people can’t predict the future or how people will behave in the future).
The issue and uniqueness of politics is NOT that everyone is an expert—its that everyone is a participant, in a real and legitimate way—as a voter or policy maker or government leader. As such, politics is truly a social issue—analytical analysis is possible, but you NEVER going to get a clear answer—the social issues are forever intertwined with policy. Remember, regardless of how much weight you may put on ideal policies/laws/regulations, the ability of any leader to implement these policies is WHOLLY CONTINGENT on winning an election, thus drawing in all potential voters in the discussion/decision. Another way to think about this is trying to answer the question—“how to be a good mother”—this is a social issue among a mother and her kids within the context of their familial unit/environment. You may have high level guidance, but no one can answer this question—its a dynamic issue that is forever unique in ways that can never yield an answer. I believe politics is the same.
Again, i think politics can be discussed rationally, but in a different context—it should be analyzed like any other social issue. For example, when there is a personal conflict, there are theories on how to handle this—you have an approach, but part of it depends on how the other person reacts, their positions, their biases, and WHY they have the particular perspective. RIght/Wrong is sometimes irrelevant because in social issues, being correct is a secondary concern to managing the social relationship (including biases/emotions/identities). Rationality is more subjective when it comes to politics—and it is very possible to have two positions that are “subjectively” rational but contradict each other with respect to a particular issue—in the same way you and your friend can disagree on whether you should study x or y or whether you should date a or b—both can have valid arguments but ultimately a decision must be made. Focusing on the “right” answer is fruitless—rationality is based on having the emotional intelligence to understanding the dynamics and uncertainty of this particular social relationship.
You may disagree, and thats fine—I’m trying to learn and this is an exercise that is not easy—however i point out that it provides an explanation for why rationality (as EY defines) has not yielded a clear answer and thus is a “mind killer.” I think the model definition of rationality used here is simply wrong when applied to politics.
Thanks, and I appreciated Paul’s article—very interesting and insightful.
Let me try to clarify --
One of the issues causing confusion is that the definition of rationality is not commonly accepted/subject to some dispute. My understanding of EY’s perspective on the definition of rationality is based on his article: What do we mean by rationality
EY is saying that applying rationality yields a normative answer—and that LW is not receptive to a different idea, such as a model where an argument can be rational but still not be the “correct”/”true” answer. My argument is that rationality, as EY defines it, does not work with respect to politics because political issues do not have correct answers (i’ll get to why shortly). So I don’t disagree with your point that politics can be discussed rationally—i just have a different definition of rationality when it comes to politics.
I read Paul’s article—it was very good—i have previously considered the idea that in politics or religion, everyone is an “expert” and the idea of identities intertwined with people’s positions—no doubt insightful, but i think its incomplete. (i also note that his argument that politics has definite answers sometimes is baffling—the cost of government policy is NEVER certain—simply because people can’t predict the future or how people will behave in the future).
The issue and uniqueness of politics is NOT that everyone is an expert—its that everyone is a participant, in a real and legitimate way—as a voter or policy maker or government leader. As such, politics is truly a social issue—analytical analysis is possible, but you NEVER going to get a clear answer—the social issues are forever intertwined with policy. Remember, regardless of how much weight you may put on ideal policies/laws/regulations, the ability of any leader to implement these policies is WHOLLY CONTINGENT on winning an election, thus drawing in all potential voters in the discussion/decision. Another way to think about this is trying to answer the question—“how to be a good mother”—this is a social issue among a mother and her kids within the context of their familial unit/environment. You may have high level guidance, but no one can answer this question—its a dynamic issue that is forever unique in ways that can never yield an answer. I believe politics is the same.
Again, i think politics can be discussed rationally, but in a different context—it should be analyzed like any other social issue. For example, when there is a personal conflict, there are theories on how to handle this—you have an approach, but part of it depends on how the other person reacts, their positions, their biases, and WHY they have the particular perspective. RIght/Wrong is sometimes irrelevant because in social issues, being correct is a secondary concern to managing the social relationship (including biases/emotions/identities). Rationality is more subjective when it comes to politics—and it is very possible to have two positions that are “subjectively” rational but contradict each other with respect to a particular issue—in the same way you and your friend can disagree on whether you should study x or y or whether you should date a or b—both can have valid arguments but ultimately a decision must be made. Focusing on the “right” answer is fruitless—rationality is based on having the emotional intelligence to understanding the dynamics and uncertainty of this particular social relationship.
You may disagree, and thats fine—I’m trying to learn and this is an exercise that is not easy—however i point out that it provides an explanation for why rationality (as EY defines) has not yielded a clear answer and thus is a “mind killer.” I think the model definition of rationality used here is simply wrong when applied to politics.