“I have no reason to think I can model Klansmen well, but when I try, I imagine their feelings around an interracial couple as being a lot like my feeling around gay people having PDAs.”
Yes, except the feelings of the Klansman are far stronger—more similar in intensity to the feelings of many muslims toward depictions of Mohammed.
“f I could self-modify to remove this feeling I’d do so in a second, but given that I can’t self-modify …”
From my own experience I suspect you could self-modify but have insufficient incentive to do so. (That’s not intended as a criticism.) I once had a very strong revulsion to gay PDAs, now I have a very mild aversion to it, perhaps similar to what you describe:
“I admit that seeing public displays of affection between gays gives me a negative visceral reaction more than the same displays among straights do”.
Since you are apparently behaving decently toward gays and not massively uncomfortable in most situations with them there’s not much reason to change. No doubt you have bigger fish to fry.
I feel similar to that but I’m confident that my mild aversion would decrease if I became close friends with a gay couple and spent a lot of time with them. My aversion would easily be swamped by more important values.
I agree. When I hear people say the equivalent of “I can’t self-modify” I always want to ask “what have you tried so far,” and “how long have tried for.” Normally that answer is not much(only a few approaches) and not very long. It often comes from lack of incentives and a belief equivalent to “thats just the way I am.”
That’s consistent with the point I was making, but let me dial back a bit.
I don’t want to commit the Typical Mind Fallacy by generalizing too much from one example. In recent years I’ve realized more and more that my mind works in a fashion that is not typical of most people I’ve met. Some things which are very easy for me seem very difficult for others, and some things difficult for me seem easy for them.
Options available to one are not necessarily available to others.
It’s fine to offer my experience but I’d do better to be more conservative about speculation on the options available to other particular individuals. Yvain is obviously a top poster here who I assume has done a lot of introspection and thought a lot about self modification so it was cheeky of me to assume I might know more about how he can self-modify than he does—in one of my first posts.
Interesting. If I am reading your post correctly, then I also might have committed a Mind Projection Fallacy when I read your post, projecting lack of assumption when there was some.
it was cheeky of me to assume I might know more about how he can self-modify than he does—in one of my first posts.
From your post I thought you were expressing that at one point you reacted to gay affection similar to what he described and similarly thought that you could not self modify. You now know that you can so it makes sense to spread the news and method to someone who thinks they can not(who would probably want to if they could) and might be in a similar position you once were and might apply the same solution. Of course maybe Yvain is not in a similar situation and your solution would not apply. You might know more, but there is a better chance that the two experiences do no overlap.
My response comes from the use of “can’t self-modify” rather then “can’t self-modify due to lack of time/resources,” “my continuing efforts have not yet borne fruit,” “I have tried all of my ideas and I am seek new ones,” “other projects consume my time and it is not currently worthwhile to pursue,” and etc. I have seen many people put road blocks in front of themselves by saying “can’t” which often reenforces the belief in “can’t” rather then staying cognizant of the conditions that make something unworthy of investment.
It may be cheeky to assume that you know weather this particular self modification is worth the resource use to Yvain, but it is not cheeky ask for more details(which are only for Yvain to share at his discretion) or offer personal experiences that Yvain may glen some insight or solution from.
“From your post I thought you were expressing that at one point you reacted to gay affection similar to what he described and similarly thought that you could not self modify. You now know that you can so it makes sense to spread the news and method to someone who thinks they can not(who would probably want to if they could) and might be in a similar position you once were and might apply the same solution.”
That’s all correct. But...
“My response comes from the use of “can’t self-modify” rather then “can’t self-modify due to lack of time/resources,” “my continuing efforts have not yet borne fruit,” “I have tried all of my ideas and I am seek new ones,” “other projects consume my time and it is not currently worthwhile to pursue,” and etc. I have seen many people put road blocks in front of themselves by saying “can’t” which often reenforces the belief in “can’t” rather then staying cognizant of the conditions that make something unworthy of investment.”
...on reflection it seemed unlikely to me that pretty much all of this hadn’t occurred to him. And I didn’t have much more to offer—I changed my mind over time by thinking about it.
Considering his involvement with LW, which is all about self modification, I think the reasonable interpretation of “I’d modify this in a minute but I can’t” is approximately “I’ve tried to modify this without success”, not ” I think this kind of change is impossible”. What I characterized as cheeky was my reading in of the latter interpretation.
I don’t have any further advice that shouldn’t be obvious. And like I said I’ve developed an appreciation that some things are a lot harder for people than others. Weird little things in many cases.
Yes, except the feelings of the Klansman are far stronger—more similar in intensity to the feelings of many muslims toward depictions of Mohammed.
From my own experience I suspect you could self-modify but have insufficient incentive to do so. (That’s not intended as a criticism.) I once had a very strong revulsion to gay PDAs, now I have a very mild aversion to it, perhaps similar to what you describe:
Since you are apparently behaving decently toward gays and not massively uncomfortable in most situations with them there’s not much reason to change. No doubt you have bigger fish to fry.
I feel similar to that but I’m confident that my mild aversion would decrease if I became close friends with a gay couple and spent a lot of time with them. My aversion would easily be swamped by more important values.
I agree. When I hear people say the equivalent of “I can’t self-modify” I always want to ask “what have you tried so far,” and “how long have tried for.” Normally that answer is not much(only a few approaches) and not very long. It often comes from lack of incentives and a belief equivalent to “thats just the way I am.”
That’s consistent with the point I was making, but let me dial back a bit.
I don’t want to commit the Typical Mind Fallacy by generalizing too much from one example. In recent years I’ve realized more and more that my mind works in a fashion that is not typical of most people I’ve met. Some things which are very easy for me seem very difficult for others, and some things difficult for me seem easy for them.
Options available to one are not necessarily available to others.
It’s fine to offer my experience but I’d do better to be more conservative about speculation on the options available to other particular individuals. Yvain is obviously a top poster here who I assume has done a lot of introspection and thought a lot about self modification so it was cheeky of me to assume I might know more about how he can self-modify than he does—in one of my first posts.
Oops.
Interesting. If I am reading your post correctly, then I also might have committed a Mind Projection Fallacy when I read your post, projecting lack of assumption when there was some.
From your post I thought you were expressing that at one point you reacted to gay affection similar to what he described and similarly thought that you could not self modify. You now know that you can so it makes sense to spread the news and method to someone who thinks they can not(who would probably want to if they could) and might be in a similar position you once were and might apply the same solution. Of course maybe Yvain is not in a similar situation and your solution would not apply. You might know more, but there is a better chance that the two experiences do no overlap.
My response comes from the use of “can’t self-modify” rather then “can’t self-modify due to lack of time/resources,” “my continuing efforts have not yet borne fruit,” “I have tried all of my ideas and I am seek new ones,” “other projects consume my time and it is not currently worthwhile to pursue,” and etc. I have seen many people put road blocks in front of themselves by saying “can’t” which often reenforces the belief in “can’t” rather then staying cognizant of the conditions that make something unworthy of investment.
It may be cheeky to assume that you know weather this particular self modification is worth the resource use to Yvain, but it is not cheeky ask for more details(which are only for Yvain to share at his discretion) or offer personal experiences that Yvain may glen some insight or solution from.
That’s all correct. But...
...on reflection it seemed unlikely to me that pretty much all of this hadn’t occurred to him. And I didn’t have much more to offer—I changed my mind over time by thinking about it.
Considering his involvement with LW, which is all about self modification, I think the reasonable interpretation of “I’d modify this in a minute but I can’t” is approximately “I’ve tried to modify this without success”, not ” I think this kind of change is impossible”. What I characterized as cheeky was my reading in of the latter interpretation.
I don’t have any further advice that shouldn’t be obvious. And like I said I’ve developed an appreciation that some things are a lot harder for people than others. Weird little things in many cases.