I don’t think I missed the point of the essay. I clearly state at the end of the post that the ideas presented were incredibly interesting. I even posted an essay about Peikoff’s defense of the closed system of objectivism, which I thought was more representative of the cultish nature of the group. I was responding to what I saw as a misrepresentation of Ayn Rand that I thought was unnecessary with respect to the goals of the essay.
Suppose Eleizer decided to collect all of his writings and found his own philosophy called Yudkowism of which he was the final arbiter. You can object to him doing that, and that’s a pretty damn valid objection considering the nature of his writing. But suppose he didn’t care what you thought, and did it anyway. He writes up plenty more ideas, gives some lectures, influences people, vigorously tries to further intellectual progress, and dies. Towards the end of his life, people notice him doing some weird things that don’t seem to fit with his ideas. Someone thinks “Hey, this isn’t’ cool! I thought he was an advocate of rationality, but he doesn’t seem to be accepting of other people’s reasonable ideas!’. Then this person writes an essay using him as an example of what to avoid when trying to further humanity, “raise the sanity waterline”, and encourage progress in philosophy and science. In this essay, the person uses Eliezer’s personal life to reveal the extent of his spiral into destruction.
Now, you and I both think very highly of the ideas presented in Yudkowism, though we might object to the name, to the closed system, or to its structure. We have read his writings, and they have influenced us in a positive way and helped us become more rational people. We don’t see him as a Great Leader, and we don’t want him presented as such, but we can’t deny that his actions have precipitated this label. And so we read this essay, and we feel like we learned more about rationality, about group identification, about the need for openness and the awareness of our place in the progress of humanity.
But then we notice that the essay is unnecessarily dismissive of Eliezer. We realize that this may or may not have any influence on the relevance of his philosophy (as, of course, if the ideas are good enough they should be able to stand up to any criticism of its spokesman), but we are a little taken aback by the flawed portrayal of his character.
This was the point of my post. I don’t think it’s necessary to attack a person’s character for the sake of rhetoric, especially when the highlighted aspects of that person’s character are exaggerated. You might think the same, but disagree that the rhetoric was all that harmful, and that’s fine. I thought it was harmful.
I think the rest of your comment pertains to the actual evidence of Rand’s strangehold over her followers. The bit about homosexuality is especially revealing without resorting to harmful rhetoric. Again, I liked the final conclusion and thesis of the essay, but I disliked the way it was reached.
I don’t think it’s necessary to attack a person’s character for the sake of rhetoric, especially when the highlighted aspects of that person’s character are exaggerated.
What attacks on Rand’s character did EY make?
I went back and reread Shermer’s article, that EY links, and EY’s post, and when comparing the two of them EY’s post is a defense of Rand. “This could have happened to anybody; it might even happen to us! Let’s try to learn from their example so that it doesn’t.” Shermer goes into the details of the nasty breakup between Rand and Branden- EY takes at face value that the spouses were okay with it, and labels it a private matter.
What am I missing, here? Quotes from EY’s post will help.
The vibrance that Rand admired in science, in commerce, in every railroad that replaced a horse-and-buggy route, in every skyscraper built with new architecture—it all comes from the principle of surpassing the ancient masters. How can there be science, if the most knowledgeable scientist there will ever be, has already lived? Who would raise the New York skyline that Rand admired so, if the tallest building that would ever exist, had already been built? And yet Ayn Rand acknowledged no superior, in the past, or in the future yet to come.
This seems to state that Rand was incapable of accepting that someone could be better than her, which I think was an exaggeration of her bloated ego. I understand the point, but the following passage from Branden’s book did not seem to justify this statement enough. Here is some more context on that quote (take it with a grain of salt, as I found it on objectivist site, though it seems to be well cited) :
No, she did not. Tales that Rand ended relationships with people over disagreements in musical tastes seem to stem primarily from Barbara Branden’s book The Passion of Ayn Rand, in which Branden gives a brief account of several arguments between Rand and her longtime friends Joan Mitchell Blumenthal and Allan Blumenthal, over differences of taste in music and painting. According to the information in Branden’s book, these arguments were part of a generally worsening relationship between Rand and the Blumenthals over several years in the 1970s, which culminated in the Blumenthals initiating a break with Rand (not vice versa) in 1978. Even if one believes that Rand ran a cult from which she excommunicated people, it is hard to see how these disagreements could be interpreted as instances of excommunication, since the Blumenthals remained friends with Rand for several years while these arguments were happening, and they were the ones who initiated the break.[]
Other accounts of how Rand dealt with artistic differences also fail to support the “excommunication” interpretation. Alan Greenspan is reported to have disagreed openly with Rand’s opinions on music, and even convinced her to moderate her negative opinion of Mozart.[] At least one person who remained Rand’s friend until her death was an admitted lover of Beethoven’s music: Leonard Peikoff, who was Rand’s closest friend for over a decade and the heir to her estate.[*]
Another quote:
It’s noteworthy, I think, that Ayn Rand’s fictional heroes were architects and engineers; John Galt, her ultimate, was a physicist; and yet Ayn Rand herself wasn’t a great scientist. As far as I know, she wasn’t particularly good at math. She could not aspire to rival her own heroes. Maybe that’s why she began to lose track of Tsuyoku Naritai.
I think I showed why this statement was untrue, and I don’t think anyone can argue how arrogant it sounds (though that is a personal gripe I have with it).
“Study science, not just me!” is probably the most important piece of advice Ayn Rand should’ve given her followers and didn’t. There’s no one human being who ever lived, whose shoulders were broad enough to bear all the weight of a true science with many contributors.
She did tell her followers to study science.
To be one more milestone in humanity’s road is the best that can be said of anyone; but this seemed too lowly to please Ayn Rand. And that is how she became a mere Ultimate Prophet.
She seemed very pleased with her achievements, and I couldn’t find any evidence that said she refused to accept other ideas when faced with substantial proof (though this a difficult topic, since many of her ideas were based on her axioms of morality and so I’m sure she refused to accept many ideas that contradicted her axioms and thus invalidating many of the things I’ve said. But I still think the portrayal was a bit harsh). I recall that she was invited to speak at the Ford Hall Forum where she knew there would be many, many people challenging her ideas. I know she was very rigid in her beliefs, but it seems hard for me to accept that “being one more milestone in humanity’s road” was not enough for Rand. But I may be giving her too much credit in this regard.
Ayn Rand fled the Soviet Union, wrote a book about individualism that a lot of people liked, got plenty of compliments, and formed a coterie of admirers. Her admirers found nicer and nicer things to say about her (happy death spiral), and she enjoyed it too much to tell them to shut up. She found herself with the power to crush those of whom she disapproved, and she didn’t resist the temptation of power.
This is related to my previous criticisms. It just seems to harsh to me. I wanted more factual evidence for this, not just the quote about musical differences which turned out to be more ambiguous than it was portrayed.
Perhaps I’m being too picky. Calling Rand an “Ultimate Prophet” seemed so incongruous with her actions and her philosophy. She was incredibly forthright and in your face with her ideas, and I can see why it was interpreted as evangelism. But objectively speaking, it seemed to harsh for my tastes. Saying she “crushed those of whom she disapproved” is just… I don’t know.
I see your position and I accept that you have every right to criticize my thoughts. This is a very ambiguous topic, and I think I can see why people seem to be angry with my choice of presenting this. I don’t think her portrayal was very fair, is all. Yes, compared with other criticisms out there, this looks like praise. I just hold these Sequence posts to a higher standard. If I found this in a popular article about Ayn Rand, or a newspaper article, or a Reddit post… I would note it’s high quality. I’ve just been so used to every side of an argument being represented incredibly clearly and without ambiguity (ironic, given my post) that I felt a need to post this. It was kind of like eating a bunch of skittles and getting an M&M; not so bad, just a little jarring.
This seems to state that Rand was incapable of accepting that someone could be better than her, which I think was an exaggeration of her bloated ego.
Sure. But is the interpretation of EY significantly different if instead of AR the woman that’s AR the myth? I know a number of Objectivists who really do believe that AR was the most important person in history. It’s very different from reading the Analects, in which Confucius, mourning a gifted pupil, tells another pupil that the dead pupil was five times as clever as Confucius was. Regardless of whether or not Rand had the properly calibrated humility of science, she definitely failed to inculcate it in her friends and students.
I think I showed why this statement was untrue, and I don’t think anyone can argue how arrogant it sounds (though that is a personal gripe I have with it).
Sure. “Particularly good at math” may mean very different things to you and EY. Math was Rand’s favorite subject, but if EY means “Math Olympiad winner” by “particularly good” then those are different standards. Compare to Asimov, who was a professor of biochemistry.
I don’t think her portrayal was very fair, is all. Yes, compared with other criticisms out there, this looks like praise.
Compare these statements. Are there criticisms out there that you think are fair?
I think Rand is an important person, and I suspect I’ve read more Rand and know more Objectivists than EY. But I don’t think EY is obligated to invest very much before criticizing Rand, especially because his primary criticisms are of the Objectivist movement, and only indirectly criticisms of Rand. We know that Objectivism is not the rationalist movement it could be. (Many of the Objectivists I’ve introduced to LW have taken an instant liking to it, seeing all the places where LW-style rationality connects to or supersedes Objectivist thought.) Because the Objectivist movement revolves around Ayn Rand, it’s probable that she had a big part to play in the creation of their culture. Maybe Branden was the main pusher of hero-worship- but Rand had an affair with him, rather than warning against hero-worship and cultivating dissent.
But taking a step back, it’s hard to see why Rand’s treatment in EY’s post is significant. Is it because you think people on LW ought to have a higher opinion of Rand than they currently do? Because you think the story would be more effective at showing how to not become a cult if it included more nuance or references to Rand’s life? Some other reason?
Sure. But is the interpretation of EY significantly different if instead of AR the woman that’s AR the myth? I know a number of Objectivists who really do believe that AR was the most important person in history. It’s very different from reading the Analects, in which Confucius, mourning a gifted pupil, tells another pupil that the dead pupil was five times as clever as Confucius was. Regardless of whether or not Rand had the properly calibrated humility of science, she definitely failed to inculcate it in her friends and students.
Isn’t that a subtle point that would require multiple readings to fully understand? I mean if someone were to read the essay while going through the sequences, they would understand that Rand did not do enough to resist the slide into entropy, but they would also think that Rand actively encouraged the slide itself. Only after thinking about it heavily would they consider that it was Ayn Rand the myth, the one that objectivists defend in the absence of reason, that was being spoken of, and not the person who had some ideas and wrote them down. For example, I read this essay while in the middle of Atlas Shrugged, and because of her portrayal I kept expecting some completely ridiculous or offensive idea to come up, and I even considered putting it down when it was getting good, since I thought I might be buying into some evil ideas on accident. While that was definitely my fault, it not hard to imagine it happening to anyone else. It might even be enough to convince them that Rand is not even worth reading, which I think would be a mistake.
Sure. “Particularly good at math” may mean very different things to you and EY. Math was Rand’s favorite subject, but if EY means “Math Olympiad winner” by “particularly good” then those are different standards. Compare to Asimov, who was a professor of biochemistry.
Yes, but the statement that follows it says that “She could not aspire to rival her heroes”. But her heroes were characterized by the existence of ability and their desire to use it, not the existence of specific abilities. Suppose John Galt, instead of being a physicist, was a novelist whose ideas were so powerful that should he allow the government to take his books, they would control the world. Well that’s almost exactly what he was! And I don’t think you could argue that she did not have the capacity to rival that ability, being a particularly good writer.
Even if being an engineer was necessary for her to rival her heroes, I think her math teacher saying “It would be a crime if you didn’t go into mathematics” is enough evidence of the fact that she at least had the capacity to rival them.
Compare these statements. Are there criticisms out there that you think are fair?
I thought the criticism in your parent comment and your subsequent remarks of her influence on her followers were fair, and they cover all the bases that need to be covered without being overly dismissive. I don’t see why you couldn’t turn it into an interesting essay without losing the neutral but critical tone.
But taking a step back, it’s hard to see why Rand’s treatment in EY’s post is significant. Is it because you think people on LW ought to have a higher opinion of Rand than they currently do? Because you think the story would be more effective at showing how to not become a cult if it included more nuance or references to Rand’s life? Some other reason?
I think I addressed this in my example above. If the sequences are to be read by those who have little experience with rationality, I think it would turn them off to a good writer with interesting ideas. If instead it was more supportive of the fundamentals of Rand’s philosophy but sharply criticizing the fact that she did not attempt to stop the slide into entropy, it would prime readers to take her writing with a grain of salt without dismissing her as irrelevant.
I don’t think LW ought to have a higher opinion of Rand, but I also don’t think they should be convinced to have a low opinion of her.
I don’t think I missed the point of the essay. I clearly state at the end of the post that the ideas presented were incredibly interesting. I even posted an essay about Peikoff’s defense of the closed system of objectivism, which I thought was more representative of the cultish nature of the group. I was responding to what I saw as a misrepresentation of Ayn Rand that I thought was unnecessary with respect to the goals of the essay.
Suppose Eleizer decided to collect all of his writings and found his own philosophy called Yudkowism of which he was the final arbiter. You can object to him doing that, and that’s a pretty damn valid objection considering the nature of his writing. But suppose he didn’t care what you thought, and did it anyway. He writes up plenty more ideas, gives some lectures, influences people, vigorously tries to further intellectual progress, and dies. Towards the end of his life, people notice him doing some weird things that don’t seem to fit with his ideas. Someone thinks “Hey, this isn’t’ cool! I thought he was an advocate of rationality, but he doesn’t seem to be accepting of other people’s reasonable ideas!’. Then this person writes an essay using him as an example of what to avoid when trying to further humanity, “raise the sanity waterline”, and encourage progress in philosophy and science. In this essay, the person uses Eliezer’s personal life to reveal the extent of his spiral into destruction.
Now, you and I both think very highly of the ideas presented in Yudkowism, though we might object to the name, to the closed system, or to its structure. We have read his writings, and they have influenced us in a positive way and helped us become more rational people. We don’t see him as a Great Leader, and we don’t want him presented as such, but we can’t deny that his actions have precipitated this label. And so we read this essay, and we feel like we learned more about rationality, about group identification, about the need for openness and the awareness of our place in the progress of humanity.
But then we notice that the essay is unnecessarily dismissive of Eliezer. We realize that this may or may not have any influence on the relevance of his philosophy (as, of course, if the ideas are good enough they should be able to stand up to any criticism of its spokesman), but we are a little taken aback by the flawed portrayal of his character.
This was the point of my post. I don’t think it’s necessary to attack a person’s character for the sake of rhetoric, especially when the highlighted aspects of that person’s character are exaggerated. You might think the same, but disagree that the rhetoric was all that harmful, and that’s fine. I thought it was harmful.
I think the rest of your comment pertains to the actual evidence of Rand’s strangehold over her followers. The bit about homosexuality is especially revealing without resorting to harmful rhetoric. Again, I liked the final conclusion and thesis of the essay, but I disliked the way it was reached.
What attacks on Rand’s character did EY make?
I went back and reread Shermer’s article, that EY links, and EY’s post, and when comparing the two of them EY’s post is a defense of Rand. “This could have happened to anybody; it might even happen to us! Let’s try to learn from their example so that it doesn’t.” Shermer goes into the details of the nasty breakup between Rand and Branden- EY takes at face value that the spouses were okay with it, and labels it a private matter.
What am I missing, here? Quotes from EY’s post will help.
This seems to state that Rand was incapable of accepting that someone could be better than her, which I think was an exaggeration of her bloated ego. I understand the point, but the following passage from Branden’s book did not seem to justify this statement enough. Here is some more context on that quote (take it with a grain of salt, as I found it on objectivist site, though it seems to be well cited) :
Another quote:
I think I showed why this statement was untrue, and I don’t think anyone can argue how arrogant it sounds (though that is a personal gripe I have with it).
She did tell her followers to study science.
She seemed very pleased with her achievements, and I couldn’t find any evidence that said she refused to accept other ideas when faced with substantial proof (though this a difficult topic, since many of her ideas were based on her axioms of morality and so I’m sure she refused to accept many ideas that contradicted her axioms and thus invalidating many of the things I’ve said. But I still think the portrayal was a bit harsh). I recall that she was invited to speak at the Ford Hall Forum where she knew there would be many, many people challenging her ideas. I know she was very rigid in her beliefs, but it seems hard for me to accept that “being one more milestone in humanity’s road” was not enough for Rand. But I may be giving her too much credit in this regard.
This is related to my previous criticisms. It just seems to harsh to me. I wanted more factual evidence for this, not just the quote about musical differences which turned out to be more ambiguous than it was portrayed.
Perhaps I’m being too picky. Calling Rand an “Ultimate Prophet” seemed so incongruous with her actions and her philosophy. She was incredibly forthright and in your face with her ideas, and I can see why it was interpreted as evangelism. But objectively speaking, it seemed to harsh for my tastes. Saying she “crushed those of whom she disapproved” is just… I don’t know.
I see your position and I accept that you have every right to criticize my thoughts. This is a very ambiguous topic, and I think I can see why people seem to be angry with my choice of presenting this. I don’t think her portrayal was very fair, is all. Yes, compared with other criticisms out there, this looks like praise. I just hold these Sequence posts to a higher standard. If I found this in a popular article about Ayn Rand, or a newspaper article, or a Reddit post… I would note it’s high quality. I’ve just been so used to every side of an argument being represented incredibly clearly and without ambiguity (ironic, given my post) that I felt a need to post this. It was kind of like eating a bunch of skittles and getting an M&M; not so bad, just a little jarring.
Sure. But is the interpretation of EY significantly different if instead of AR the woman that’s AR the myth? I know a number of Objectivists who really do believe that AR was the most important person in history. It’s very different from reading the Analects, in which Confucius, mourning a gifted pupil, tells another pupil that the dead pupil was five times as clever as Confucius was. Regardless of whether or not Rand had the properly calibrated humility of science, she definitely failed to inculcate it in her friends and students.
Sure. “Particularly good at math” may mean very different things to you and EY. Math was Rand’s favorite subject, but if EY means “Math Olympiad winner” by “particularly good” then those are different standards. Compare to Asimov, who was a professor of biochemistry.
Compare these statements. Are there criticisms out there that you think are fair?
I think Rand is an important person, and I suspect I’ve read more Rand and know more Objectivists than EY. But I don’t think EY is obligated to invest very much before criticizing Rand, especially because his primary criticisms are of the Objectivist movement, and only indirectly criticisms of Rand. We know that Objectivism is not the rationalist movement it could be. (Many of the Objectivists I’ve introduced to LW have taken an instant liking to it, seeing all the places where LW-style rationality connects to or supersedes Objectivist thought.) Because the Objectivist movement revolves around Ayn Rand, it’s probable that she had a big part to play in the creation of their culture. Maybe Branden was the main pusher of hero-worship- but Rand had an affair with him, rather than warning against hero-worship and cultivating dissent.
But taking a step back, it’s hard to see why Rand’s treatment in EY’s post is significant. Is it because you think people on LW ought to have a higher opinion of Rand than they currently do? Because you think the story would be more effective at showing how to not become a cult if it included more nuance or references to Rand’s life? Some other reason?
Isn’t that a subtle point that would require multiple readings to fully understand? I mean if someone were to read the essay while going through the sequences, they would understand that Rand did not do enough to resist the slide into entropy, but they would also think that Rand actively encouraged the slide itself. Only after thinking about it heavily would they consider that it was Ayn Rand the myth, the one that objectivists defend in the absence of reason, that was being spoken of, and not the person who had some ideas and wrote them down. For example, I read this essay while in the middle of Atlas Shrugged, and because of her portrayal I kept expecting some completely ridiculous or offensive idea to come up, and I even considered putting it down when it was getting good, since I thought I might be buying into some evil ideas on accident. While that was definitely my fault, it not hard to imagine it happening to anyone else. It might even be enough to convince them that Rand is not even worth reading, which I think would be a mistake.
Yes, but the statement that follows it says that “She could not aspire to rival her heroes”. But her heroes were characterized by the existence of ability and their desire to use it, not the existence of specific abilities. Suppose John Galt, instead of being a physicist, was a novelist whose ideas were so powerful that should he allow the government to take his books, they would control the world. Well that’s almost exactly what he was! And I don’t think you could argue that she did not have the capacity to rival that ability, being a particularly good writer.
Even if being an engineer was necessary for her to rival her heroes, I think her math teacher saying “It would be a crime if you didn’t go into mathematics” is enough evidence of the fact that she at least had the capacity to rival them.
I thought the criticism in your parent comment and your subsequent remarks of her influence on her followers were fair, and they cover all the bases that need to be covered without being overly dismissive. I don’t see why you couldn’t turn it into an interesting essay without losing the neutral but critical tone.
I think I addressed this in my example above. If the sequences are to be read by those who have little experience with rationality, I think it would turn them off to a good writer with interesting ideas. If instead it was more supportive of the fundamentals of Rand’s philosophy but sharply criticizing the fact that she did not attempt to stop the slide into entropy, it would prime readers to take her writing with a grain of salt without dismissing her as irrelevant.
I don’t think LW ought to have a higher opinion of Rand, but I also don’t think they should be convinced to have a low opinion of her.