Could you explain to me this whole “mind killing” business? I’m not talking politics here, I’m talking rhetoric. All I did was take Rand’s actions as mentioned in the original essay and gave a justification by Rand’s philosophy. This wasn’t used to justify her philosophy, only to show that her actions were consistent with it. I agree with Eliezer’s final points, but I don’t agree with the way they were represented, and that’s all I sought to show here.
I don’t see how the nature of the criticism is changed by the fact that worse criticism exists. If the facts are incorrect, they are incorrect and that’s it.
The only factual inaccuracy (and you’ve spent more time looking at this post than I care to, evidently, so maybe I’ve missed something) I see is the math bit. And that’s even a stretch. I’d say it’s a reasonable interpretation that Rand didn’t meet the “particularly good” standard. I’ve certainly never seen any of evidence that it is beside the third hand account (Professor > Rand > Barbra) presented in the post. And even if she was unusually talented, she didn’t really use any significant math in her philosophy or writing, which probably lead to the decay of the talent.
But basically, anything that divides humans into tribes is “mind killing”. It doesn’t have to be politics—any polarizing issue will do. Religion is the other prototypical example. But even inane things like Mac vs. PC can be mindkilling to an extent—anything that’s polarizing. And Rand was one of the most polarizing figures of the 20th century.
I originally had it that way and changed it, since I thought it was technically incorrect and that bothered me. But I think you’re right, the statement is less distracting when you are ignored, and you don’t significantly lose information. I will edit it and change it.
Ah, I see. The mind killing bit makes sense, but wouldn’t you want to combat it by confronting it head on and refusing to succumb to the polarization? I don’t find it to be particularly hard to do, and I’m fairly certain I haven’t been mind killed. But I very much respect this position, and I accept the consequences of publishing material that enables these tendencies.
The factual inaccuracies were primarily in the presentation of her actions as being discordant with her philosophy. I have attempted to show her actions were not so incongruous. Also, the presentation of her character was inaccurate, portraying her as some sort of pseudo philosopher who had no idea what she was talking about. Just because she idolizes Aristotle is not evidence of her ineptitude as a thinker. Just because she has a bloated ego (though this is also a big part of her philosophy) does not mean she is incapable of recognizing her superiors. She may have thought she was the epitome of a rational person, but this certainly did not prevent her from recognizing ability when she saw it. She is portrayed in the original essay as being unable to recognize the nature of science and its progression, when there is much evidence that she was very aware of how science progresses and why.
Ah, I see. The mind killing bit makes sense, but wouldn’t you want to combat it by confronting it head on and refusing to succumb to the polarization?
In short, no. Because this site isn’t about Rand, or politics, or religion, or whatever. It’s a site about rationality, and discussion thereof is tremendously hindered by mindkilling topics.
If you want to make a point about science, or rationality, then my advice is to not choose a domain from contemporary politics if you can possibly avoid it. If your point is inherently about politics, then talk about Louis XVI during the French Revolution. Politics is an important domain to which we should individually apply our rationality—but it’s a terrible domain in which to learn rationality, or discuss rationality, unless all the discussants are already rational.
The mind killing bit makes sense, but wouldn’t you want to combat it by confronting it head on and refusing to succumb to the polarization? I don’t find it to be particularly hard to do, and I’m fairly certain I haven’t been mind killed.
Discussing mindkilling is difficult. I also wish there was a way to discuss politically heated topic safely (even at the cost that I would be forbidded to participate, just allowed to read a discussion on topic of my interest written by people I consider rational), but seems to me that experiments don’t give us much hope. Even on LW when the discussion starts to approach something political, I feel it becomes worse that usual, though still rather good compared with the rest of Internet.
It is difficult to argue why and how exactly this happens, because saying “a person being mindkilled usually does not feel like being mindkilled” seems like a fully general counterargument. But in my experience, someone saying they are able to discuss topic X without being mindkilled means almost nothing. I believe some people are able to discuss some sensitive topics without getting mindkilled, but I also believe there are much more people who think they are able to discuss the same topic without getting mindkilled and they are completely wrong. Trying to invite to discussion only people self-diagnosed as resistant for mindkilling does not work.
If such discussion ever becomes possible, it will need to have very strict rules set in advance, much higher than an ordinary LW discussion.
Could you explain to me this whole “mind killing” business? I’m not talking politics here, I’m talking rhetoric. All I did was take Rand’s actions as mentioned in the original essay and gave a justification by Rand’s philosophy. This wasn’t used to justify her philosophy, only to show that her actions were consistent with it. I agree with Eliezer’s final points, but I don’t agree with the way they were represented, and that’s all I sought to show here.
I don’t see how the nature of the criticism is changed by the fact that worse criticism exists. If the facts are incorrect, they are incorrect and that’s it.
The only factual inaccuracy (and you’ve spent more time looking at this post than I care to, evidently, so maybe I’ve missed something) I see is the math bit. And that’s even a stretch. I’d say it’s a reasonable interpretation that Rand didn’t meet the “particularly good” standard. I’ve certainly never seen any of evidence that it is beside the third hand account (Professor > Rand > Barbra) presented in the post. And even if she was unusually talented, she didn’t really use any significant math in her philosophy or writing, which probably lead to the decay of the talent.
But basically, anything that divides humans into tribes is “mind killing”. It doesn’t have to be politics—any polarizing issue will do. Religion is the other prototypical example. But even inane things like Mac vs. PC can be mindkilling to an extent—anything that’s polarizing. And Rand was one of the most polarizing figures of the 20th century.
(Unless you have significant reason to doubt my ability to transcribe a passage from a book verbatim, then I think this should only be “third-hand”.)
I originally had it that way and changed it, since I thought it was technically incorrect and that bothered me. But I think you’re right, the statement is less distracting when you are ignored, and you don’t significantly lose information. I will edit it and change it.
Ah, I see. The mind killing bit makes sense, but wouldn’t you want to combat it by confronting it head on and refusing to succumb to the polarization? I don’t find it to be particularly hard to do, and I’m fairly certain I haven’t been mind killed. But I very much respect this position, and I accept the consequences of publishing material that enables these tendencies.
The factual inaccuracies were primarily in the presentation of her actions as being discordant with her philosophy. I have attempted to show her actions were not so incongruous. Also, the presentation of her character was inaccurate, portraying her as some sort of pseudo philosopher who had no idea what she was talking about. Just because she idolizes Aristotle is not evidence of her ineptitude as a thinker. Just because she has a bloated ego (though this is also a big part of her philosophy) does not mean she is incapable of recognizing her superiors. She may have thought she was the epitome of a rational person, but this certainly did not prevent her from recognizing ability when she saw it. She is portrayed in the original essay as being unable to recognize the nature of science and its progression, when there is much evidence that she was very aware of how science progresses and why.
In short, no. Because this site isn’t about Rand, or politics, or religion, or whatever. It’s a site about rationality, and discussion thereof is tremendously hindered by mindkilling topics.
Politics is the Mindkiller
Discussing mindkilling is difficult. I also wish there was a way to discuss politically heated topic safely (even at the cost that I would be forbidded to participate, just allowed to read a discussion on topic of my interest written by people I consider rational), but seems to me that experiments don’t give us much hope. Even on LW when the discussion starts to approach something political, I feel it becomes worse that usual, though still rather good compared with the rest of Internet.
It is difficult to argue why and how exactly this happens, because saying “a person being mindkilled usually does not feel like being mindkilled” seems like a fully general counterargument. But in my experience, someone saying they are able to discuss topic X without being mindkilled means almost nothing. I believe some people are able to discuss some sensitive topics without getting mindkilled, but I also believe there are much more people who think they are able to discuss the same topic without getting mindkilled and they are completely wrong. Trying to invite to discussion only people self-diagnosed as resistant for mindkilling does not work.
If such discussion ever becomes possible, it will need to have very strict rules set in advance, much higher than an ordinary LW discussion.