The first goal of any moral human is to reduce the likelihood of human extinction.
I hope that clears up the issue.
I would rather obey some different ideological socio-economic-political construct/model, than accept all of humanity ought to die to avoid such a scenario. After all we are speaking of a very few humans in positions of power, making these decisions for everyone, and they seem biased towards maintaining their own privilege as if it is objectively necessary. It is not. Involuntary bias is inherent to hierarchy. It is a product of social apartheid. The alternative would be inclusion of “leadership” within the same social circumstances as the many. ie: inclusion in the communities they rule, rather than separation. Social norms in a given sub-culture, like that of the so called “elite”, change circumstantially. The resulting values and attitudes are divergent from what the majority would consider appropriate.
I would propose that the inherent problem with hierarchy, is isolation from the macrocultural values of a population, which leads to a psychosocial bias including derision of those lower on the hierarchy than the rulers, and so the rulers become disconnected from collective rationality. Disconnected via involuntary bias.
This means the ruling “class” make decisions which suit themselves, rather than decisions which are of objective benefit to the continuation of the species.
You have made me feel bad with your “LOL”, and I’m unsure if you have said this to make me feel poorly, or to make yourself feel better.
Perhaps some of each?
The first goal of any moral human is to reduce the likelihood of human extinction. I hope that clears up the issue.
I don’t see it as self-evident.
If you assert that reducing the likelihood of human extinction overrides all and any other goals, you become vulnerable to what’s locally known as Pascal’s Mugging (basically, for an extremely high-value event you are forced to react to extremely low probabilities of it happening).
I would rather obey some different ideological socio-economic-political construct/model, than accept all of humanity ought to die to avoid such a scenario.
Is that a choice someone is offering you? By the way, how do you think such scenarios work in game theory?
You have made me feel bad with your “LOL”, and I’m unsure if you have said this to make me feel poorly, or to make yourself feel better.
It was a chuckle. Laughter is good. Don’t take everything as social jousting.
Addition
If Gandhi was to be given the choice to reduce his empathy slightly, in exchange for a reward, and he did so, every new exchange like that is more likely to be agreed to. This idea was mentioned on this site somewhere.
It is the same with cultural indoctrination into hierarchical social structures. The more we become used to concentrated power, the less we are able to notice and assess other options. Cultural norms inform and restrain rational thought. Bias is involuntary. Now we see existential threat from the “normal” operation of our structure, we have trouble doing anything about it, because all alternatives have been caused to be widely believed to be wrong. Breaking out of that cognitive trap involves assessing some uncomfortable ideas...
-If it is likely that continuing this socioeconomic structure makes human extinction probable, this century, what actions are acceptable as “resistance”?
Utilitarianism would indicate that massive casualties in pursuit of revolutionary change are preferable to total casualties from inaction. Both positions are only hypotheses. Empiricism splits each as more, or less probable. Extinction does seem increasingly likely as our system unfolds over time, so hardship from revolt in increasingly; the rational option.
...not that this fictional revolt is likely to occur, just pointing out it may well be entirely moral to wage violent revolt in pursuit of a new and more rational system conducive to continuing human survival. Just a thought experiment. Perhaps well-used guillotines in town squares are preferable to apathetic acquiescence to existing power systems.
I don’t know. I hate the idea.
It is worth pointing out the moral efficacy of such an idea now that democracy has been absolutely neutered.
re: Pascal’s Mugging.
There are thresholds. Would a guy hand over his wallet if he was about to die from starvation, and the wallet contained his only means to prevent this? A quadrillion doesn’t matter if he is not alive to see it.
The difference is that the best information we have, indicates that no available “officially sanctioned” structural change is better than radical change, if the goal is the survival of the human species. Inequality (capitalism) killed democracy, because wealth is power. WE cannot vote using a democracy we do not have to get democracy back. We cannot vote to prevent an oligarchic class continuing to promote consumption and the poisoning of our world. Strong cultural bias, plus power, is genocidally dangerous. What ought people who see the systemic, structural, existential threat do, if all legal avenues for change are shut off?
re: game theory choice.
Yes. We are all in a situation where we must decide if one socio-economic paradigm is worth fighting for over another. Historically wars are fought by the poor, for, the rich. The dominant preserve their hierarchical privilege through various means of convincing the subjugated that it is they who are under threat.
This would not matter nearly so much if we did not have evidence that our species’ projected timeline is shrinking. There is a large body of evidence that humanity may wipe ourselves out in several different ways before the end of this century. This circumstance is systemically unacceptable. If we could all continue indefinitely, being brutal and torturous, over consuming, wasting, propagandising the lessers, and toxifying this blue marble… that would be less bad, than doing so knowing the likely result is near term extinction.
We know there is an existential threat from inaction. This means inaction is morally deficient.
There are high odds that the economic incentives and stratification (including sub-cultural influences on values—Lord Acton’s letters from 1880s: “Power corrupts” etc), will override the ability of the powerful to rationally guide humanity out of the trap we have built for ourselves.
The wealthy are now sociologically obsolete, and the ideologies they use to rationalise their positions, are also the ones which prevent conservation and environmental preservation, peace, egalitarianism, positive health outcomes, and rational planning for our collective future. Self interest often opposes any notion of global planning to shield against shared threats.
Sorry for the ramble. I’m doing my best, and hopefully learning to do better.
Why are there thresholds (=discontinuities) and where do they come from?
What ought people who see the systemic, structural, existential threat do, if all legal avenues for change are shut off?
So tell us.
Historically wars are fought by the poor, for, the rich.
Not true. Ancient times’ wars were fought for survival. The side which lost decisively was often just erased. The males were killed, the women were taken and sold off, the settlements were razed. See Carthage, for example.
Medieval times’ wars were fought for power and wealth—the poor (that is, the peasants) were often the victims, but if their side lost, little changed in their lives. They continued to be serfs, just to another lord, and it didn’t matter that much.
There is a large body of evidence that humanity may wipe ourselves out in several different ways before the end of this century.
Would you like to estimate the probabilities for these different ways?
We know there is an existential threat from inaction. This means inaction is morally deficient.
Equivalent: We know there is an existential threat from action. This means action is morally deficient.
The wealthy are now sociologically obsolete
What does that mean?
There are societies without wealthy people. They… don’t do well. Notable examples are Soviet Russia and Communist China.
re: self evident.
If no one is left alive to question, then there are no more questions from us. Tree-falling in the woods. Does it fall is no-one notices? Yes. Do we care? On what foundation do we judge this new lack of tree?
We “know” so little, or at least know our knowledge is imperfect, so we also know that we would form more coherent/accurate/cogent value judgements if we had more information which was accurate. Our present judgements on moral value are likely to change with a greater understanding of reality.
If, right now, we don’t value human existence as much as we ought to, we can only discover how correct that judgement is, with more data/information.
We don’t know what we are wrong about, and what we are wrong about informs our value judgement.
If a person is a misanthropist, the pursuit of accurate knowledge is the pursuit of proving one’s own bias irrational.
That process is valuable. In order to validate the “choices” we make now, someone needs to be able to learn from them, and validate them, or not. Continued human existence, is a core of moral philosophy. Morality cannot exist in a void. Morality exists because we do.
Questioning is intrinsically definitive of human value, because without it, our existence is without experience. The difference between experience and reality, is the unknown.
If no one is left alive to question, then there are no more questions from us.
So what?
If, right now, we don’t value human existence as much as we ought to, we can only discover how correct that judgement is, with more data/information.
Equivalent: If, right now, we value human existence more than we ought to, we can only discover how correct that judgement is, with more data/information.
As you yourself point out, “we don’t know what we are wrong about”.
Morality exists because we do.
Sure, but again, so what? You treat the existence of morality (or of “questioning”) as an absolute good, but offer no reasons why this should be so.
The first goal of any moral human is to reduce the likelihood of human extinction. I hope that clears up the issue.
I would rather obey some different ideological socio-economic-political construct/model, than accept all of humanity ought to die to avoid such a scenario. After all we are speaking of a very few humans in positions of power, making these decisions for everyone, and they seem biased towards maintaining their own privilege as if it is objectively necessary. It is not. Involuntary bias is inherent to hierarchy. It is a product of social apartheid. The alternative would be inclusion of “leadership” within the same social circumstances as the many. ie: inclusion in the communities they rule, rather than separation. Social norms in a given sub-culture, like that of the so called “elite”, change circumstantially. The resulting values and attitudes are divergent from what the majority would consider appropriate.
I would propose that the inherent problem with hierarchy, is isolation from the macrocultural values of a population, which leads to a psychosocial bias including derision of those lower on the hierarchy than the rulers, and so the rulers become disconnected from collective rationality. Disconnected via involuntary bias.
This means the ruling “class” make decisions which suit themselves, rather than decisions which are of objective benefit to the continuation of the species.
You have made me feel bad with your “LOL”, and I’m unsure if you have said this to make me feel poorly, or to make yourself feel better. Perhaps some of each?
I don’t see it as self-evident.
If you assert that reducing the likelihood of human extinction overrides all and any other goals, you become vulnerable to what’s locally known as Pascal’s Mugging (basically, for an extremely high-value event you are forced to react to extremely low probabilities of it happening).
Is that a choice someone is offering you? By the way, how do you think such scenarios work in game theory?
It was a chuckle. Laughter is good. Don’t take everything as social jousting.
Addition If Gandhi was to be given the choice to reduce his empathy slightly, in exchange for a reward, and he did so, every new exchange like that is more likely to be agreed to. This idea was mentioned on this site somewhere.
It is the same with cultural indoctrination into hierarchical social structures. The more we become used to concentrated power, the less we are able to notice and assess other options. Cultural norms inform and restrain rational thought. Bias is involuntary. Now we see existential threat from the “normal” operation of our structure, we have trouble doing anything about it, because all alternatives have been caused to be widely believed to be wrong. Breaking out of that cognitive trap involves assessing some uncomfortable ideas...
-If it is likely that continuing this socioeconomic structure makes human extinction probable, this century, what actions are acceptable as “resistance”?
Utilitarianism would indicate that massive casualties in pursuit of revolutionary change are preferable to total casualties from inaction. Both positions are only hypotheses. Empiricism splits each as more, or less probable. Extinction does seem increasingly likely as our system unfolds over time, so hardship from revolt in increasingly; the rational option.
...not that this fictional revolt is likely to occur, just pointing out it may well be entirely moral to wage violent revolt in pursuit of a new and more rational system conducive to continuing human survival. Just a thought experiment. Perhaps well-used guillotines in town squares are preferable to apathetic acquiescence to existing power systems. I don’t know. I hate the idea. It is worth pointing out the moral efficacy of such an idea now that democracy has been absolutely neutered.
You’re tiptoeing all around this without explicitly saying anything definite. So what do you want your revolution to do, uncomfortably?
Why do you expect that a revolt will save humanity from extinction? To quote you yourself once again, “we don’t know what we are wrong about”.
That’s a popular position. But, historically speaking, the outcomes of taking it are not great.
re: Pascal’s Mugging. There are thresholds. Would a guy hand over his wallet if he was about to die from starvation, and the wallet contained his only means to prevent this? A quadrillion doesn’t matter if he is not alive to see it.
The difference is that the best information we have, indicates that no available “officially sanctioned” structural change is better than radical change, if the goal is the survival of the human species. Inequality (capitalism) killed democracy, because wealth is power. WE cannot vote using a democracy we do not have to get democracy back. We cannot vote to prevent an oligarchic class continuing to promote consumption and the poisoning of our world. Strong cultural bias, plus power, is genocidally dangerous. What ought people who see the systemic, structural, existential threat do, if all legal avenues for change are shut off?
re: game theory choice. Yes. We are all in a situation where we must decide if one socio-economic paradigm is worth fighting for over another. Historically wars are fought by the poor, for, the rich. The dominant preserve their hierarchical privilege through various means of convincing the subjugated that it is they who are under threat.
This would not matter nearly so much if we did not have evidence that our species’ projected timeline is shrinking. There is a large body of evidence that humanity may wipe ourselves out in several different ways before the end of this century. This circumstance is systemically unacceptable. If we could all continue indefinitely, being brutal and torturous, over consuming, wasting, propagandising the lessers, and toxifying this blue marble… that would be less bad, than doing so knowing the likely result is near term extinction.
We know there is an existential threat from inaction. This means inaction is morally deficient.
There are high odds that the economic incentives and stratification (including sub-cultural influences on values—Lord Acton’s letters from 1880s: “Power corrupts” etc), will override the ability of the powerful to rationally guide humanity out of the trap we have built for ourselves.
The wealthy are now sociologically obsolete, and the ideologies they use to rationalise their positions, are also the ones which prevent conservation and environmental preservation, peace, egalitarianism, positive health outcomes, and rational planning for our collective future. Self interest often opposes any notion of global planning to shield against shared threats.
Sorry for the ramble. I’m doing my best, and hopefully learning to do better.
Why are there thresholds (=discontinuities) and where do they come from?
So tell us.
Not true. Ancient times’ wars were fought for survival. The side which lost decisively was often just erased. The males were killed, the women were taken and sold off, the settlements were razed. See Carthage, for example.
Medieval times’ wars were fought for power and wealth—the poor (that is, the peasants) were often the victims, but if their side lost, little changed in their lives. They continued to be serfs, just to another lord, and it didn’t matter that much.
Would you like to estimate the probabilities for these different ways?
Equivalent: We know there is an existential threat from action. This means action is morally deficient.
What does that mean?
There are societies without wealthy people. They… don’t do well. Notable examples are Soviet Russia and Communist China.
re: self evident. If no one is left alive to question, then there are no more questions from us. Tree-falling in the woods. Does it fall is no-one notices? Yes. Do we care? On what foundation do we judge this new lack of tree?
We “know” so little, or at least know our knowledge is imperfect, so we also know that we would form more coherent/accurate/cogent value judgements if we had more information which was accurate. Our present judgements on moral value are likely to change with a greater understanding of reality.
If, right now, we don’t value human existence as much as we ought to, we can only discover how correct that judgement is, with more data/information.
We don’t know what we are wrong about, and what we are wrong about informs our value judgement.
If a person is a misanthropist, the pursuit of accurate knowledge is the pursuit of proving one’s own bias irrational.
That process is valuable. In order to validate the “choices” we make now, someone needs to be able to learn from them, and validate them, or not. Continued human existence, is a core of moral philosophy. Morality cannot exist in a void. Morality exists because we do.
Questioning is intrinsically definitive of human value, because without it, our existence is without experience. The difference between experience and reality, is the unknown.
So what?
Equivalent: If, right now, we value human existence more than we ought to, we can only discover how correct that judgement is, with more data/information.
As you yourself point out, “we don’t know what we are wrong about”.
Sure, but again, so what? You treat the existence of morality (or of “questioning”) as an absolute good, but offer no reasons why this should be so.