But an adult will never learn second languages faster than a child, and in fact will never learn a first language at all if not during childhood.
The same is true with sports. I imagine that if an adult has never learned to walk (somehow) that it would take a lot longer than a few months to learn to walk (a newborn doesn’t take years to learn to walk...he/she takes years to build muscle strength, and then typically a short time to learn to walk and then immediately run).
I think we all wish McWilliams was correct...I just don’t think he is.
will never learn a first language at all if not during childhood.
Pretty much true.
But an adult will never learn second languages faster than a child,
There’s probably some fading of plasticity, but there’s lots of other explanations too. Children learning languages are surrounded by it, and spend all their time learning it. Almost all adult language learning is part time, rather than full time immersion. Fluency in either case requires several years, but “can get by in” is plausibly shorter (weeks to months, say) for an adult learning secondary languages as compared to a child. An adult also often has the advantage of being able to discuss the structure and vocabulary of the target language in already acquired language.
What is nearly universally true is that people’s ability to make and distinguish between phones not present in their early environment is very weak. I will probably always have a difficult time distinguishing between “cot” and “caught” because they contain allophones of the same phoneme in my dialect. Same for “merry”, “mary” and “marry”.
What is nearly universally true is that people’s ability to make and distinguish between phones not present in their early environment is very weak. I will probably always have a difficult time distinguishing between “cot” and “caught” because they contain allophones of the same phoneme in my dialect. Same for “merry”, “mary” and “marry”.
When I took a college phonetics course, I and a classful of other students more than doubled the number of distinct sounds we could distinguish and produce. So it can certainly be done. I think adults normally don’t because they don’t need to, since mapping to their native language’s phonology is so much easier. Also, when I took a foreign language in high school, there was no IPA and none of the teachers had the linguistics training necessary to explain the cause of an accent even if they took the time to do so.
But it’s certainly true that language learning is automatic for children, and not so automatic for adults.
I never said that it’s impossible for an adult to learn a foreign language, just not as fast or effective. That man’s blog seems interesting...but I’m quite skeptical that he becomes “fluent” in a language in 2-3 months. I’d be interested to see how fluent he actually is (nevermind the similarities between several of those languages, which aids in acquisition...I’ve experienced that first hand). Then again, maybe he’s an unusual case.
There is substantial literature that suggests that language acquisition is more difficult, slower, and ultimately less successful in adults than in younger people. I believe it’s often mentioned that it’s at about 12-14 yrs old that the neural plasticity for language acquisition fades.
I think the confusion here is about what exactly is meant by “learning” a language.
If the goal is to quickly build some rudimentary skill for finding one’s way around in a foreign language (which basically boils down to memorizing a lot of words and stock phrases, along with a few very basic syntactic patterns), an intelligent adult will likely be able to achieve it faster because of better work ethic and superior general experience in tackling intellectual problems.
On the other hand, if the goal is to become indistinguishable from a native speaker, then the kid clearly has an advantage no matter how long it takes, because the task is impossible for the overwhelming majority of adults (which for this purpose means anyone over 12 or so). You may become a fluent speaker and perhaps even a good writer, but you’re stuck with a foreign accent, and even if you manage to get rid of it with special training, you’ll still make occasional subtle but noticeable syntactic and semantic errors.
If the goal is something in-between, the winner will depend on the exact benchmarks of success.
For the record he says 3 months to fluency is his personal goal, not what he guarantees/claims is always possible.
There are videos of him speaking on his various blogs, but since I don’t speak any non-English languages I can’t judge his fluency, but I expect he is conversationally competent and not indistinguishable from a native, and yes he has to work hard at it so it’s not the same kind of easy learning as children have, which seems to be what your links support, so no argument from me there.
However, he still seems to learn a useful conversational ability in a language in months whereas children take years to do that, so I still think your statement “but an adult will never learn second languages faster than a child” is a strange claim, unless you specifically mean “like a native”, which seems a much stricter test than necessary.
From your links:
Probably yes: although any adult can learn a second language, not all will do so with equal results (unlike the case with child language acquisition) (first link)
One doesn’t think about how every person has, or rather had at one time, an innate ability to learn a language to total fluency (second link)
Yet the results of child language learning are not equal or always total fluency—plenty of adults barely seem to know what they are saying, cannot express themselves clearly, do not finish sentences ‘properly’, don’t notice the difference between similar words and sentences with different meanings, and people cannot orate without learning to be orators, cannot write without learning to write (I mean author well written texts instead of drivel), cannot tell stories captivatingly without practise, cannot follow official formal documents, and other linguistic things which you might lump in with fluency or might not, leading to potentially very different expectations of a fluent person.
But an adult will never learn second languages faster than a child, and in fact will never learn a first language at all if not during childhood.
The same is true with sports. I imagine that if an adult has never learned to walk (somehow) that it would take a lot longer than a few months to learn to walk (a newborn doesn’t take years to learn to walk...he/she takes years to build muscle strength, and then typically a short time to learn to walk and then immediately run).
I think we all wish McWilliams was correct...I just don’t think he is.
Pretty much true.
There’s probably some fading of plasticity, but there’s lots of other explanations too. Children learning languages are surrounded by it, and spend all their time learning it. Almost all adult language learning is part time, rather than full time immersion. Fluency in either case requires several years, but “can get by in” is plausibly shorter (weeks to months, say) for an adult learning secondary languages as compared to a child. An adult also often has the advantage of being able to discuss the structure and vocabulary of the target language in already acquired language.
What is nearly universally true is that people’s ability to make and distinguish between phones not present in their early environment is very weak. I will probably always have a difficult time distinguishing between “cot” and “caught” because they contain allophones of the same phoneme in my dialect. Same for “merry”, “mary” and “marry”.
When I took a college phonetics course, I and a classful of other students more than doubled the number of distinct sounds we could distinguish and produce. So it can certainly be done. I think adults normally don’t because they don’t need to, since mapping to their native language’s phonology is so much easier. Also, when I took a foreign language in high school, there was no IPA and none of the teachers had the linguistics training necessary to explain the cause of an accent even if they took the time to do so.
But it’s certainly true that language learning is automatic for children, and not so automatic for adults.
Child → several years to fluency.
Adult → http://fluentin3months.com/ he started learning other languages in his late twenties.
There is substantial literature that suggests that language acquisition is more difficult, slower, and ultimately less successful in adults than in younger people. I believe it’s often mentioned that it’s at about 12-14 yrs old that the neural plasticity for language acquisition fades. http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/ling201/test4materials/secondlangacquisition.htm http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f03/web2/mtucker.html
I never said that it’s impossible for an adult to learn a foreign language, just not as fast or effective. That man’s blog seems interesting...but I’m quite skeptical that he becomes “fluent” in a language in 2-3 months. I’d be interested to see how fluent he actually is (nevermind the similarities between several of those languages, which aids in acquisition...I’ve experienced that first hand). Then again, maybe he’s an unusual case.
simplyeric:
I think the confusion here is about what exactly is meant by “learning” a language.
If the goal is to quickly build some rudimentary skill for finding one’s way around in a foreign language (which basically boils down to memorizing a lot of words and stock phrases, along with a few very basic syntactic patterns), an intelligent adult will likely be able to achieve it faster because of better work ethic and superior general experience in tackling intellectual problems.
On the other hand, if the goal is to become indistinguishable from a native speaker, then the kid clearly has an advantage no matter how long it takes, because the task is impossible for the overwhelming majority of adults (which for this purpose means anyone over 12 or so). You may become a fluent speaker and perhaps even a good writer, but you’re stuck with a foreign accent, and even if you manage to get rid of it with special training, you’ll still make occasional subtle but noticeable syntactic and semantic errors.
If the goal is something in-between, the winner will depend on the exact benchmarks of success.
For the record he says 3 months to fluency is his personal goal, not what he guarantees/claims is always possible.
There are videos of him speaking on his various blogs, but since I don’t speak any non-English languages I can’t judge his fluency, but I expect he is conversationally competent and not indistinguishable from a native, and yes he has to work hard at it so it’s not the same kind of easy learning as children have, which seems to be what your links support, so no argument from me there.
However, he still seems to learn a useful conversational ability in a language in months whereas children take years to do that, so I still think your statement “but an adult will never learn second languages faster than a child” is a strange claim, unless you specifically mean “like a native”, which seems a much stricter test than necessary.
From your links:
Yet the results of child language learning are not equal or always total fluency—plenty of adults barely seem to know what they are saying, cannot express themselves clearly, do not finish sentences ‘properly’, don’t notice the difference between similar words and sentences with different meanings, and people cannot orate without learning to be orators, cannot write without learning to write (I mean author well written texts instead of drivel), cannot tell stories captivatingly without practise, cannot follow official formal documents, and other linguistic things which you might lump in with fluency or might not, leading to potentially very different expectations of a fluent person.
The second link makes several comments including adult lack of opportunity (limited classroom time) which is interestingly mentioned here: http://www.fluentin3months.com/hours-not-years/
Mario Pei, who knew an astonishing number of languages (to what degree I don’t know), quipped that the first ten are the hardest.