While a large portion of religious knowledge is orthogonal, I would refrain from defining all knowledge produced by religious means that way. Proving the existence of God and divine order was a large motivator for early academics, scientists to. Without the discourse of a knowable, structured universe that was provided by Christianity empirical investigation might not have taken root the way it did in the west.
I actually think it is quite funny when people pit science against religion when the idea of a ordered discoverable universe stems from the Christian discourse.
Furthermore, what do you think has sustained and developed literacy and research during the centuries before science? Or better question why Judeo-Christian religions were so successful?
I will tell you. Judeo-Christian religions have dominated the religious market because it contains qualities beneficial to survival. In the Jewish faith you become a man or woman by proving that you are literate (reading the torah). That may not seem so revolutionary now, but during a time when most religions were based on blood tributes it was a pretty fucking revolutionary idea.
Again, I am not trying to advocate for Christianity or Judaism to replace science or be the norm for knowledge production. All I am saying is that you cannot deny that they got us where we are. They were the norm.
I will tell you. Judeo-Christian religions have dominated the religious market because it contains qualities beneficial to survival. In the Jewish faith you become a man or woman by proving that you are literate (reading the torah). That may not seem so revolutionary now, but during a time when most religions were based on blood tributes it was a pretty fucking revolutionary idea.
This claim needs more evidence. Prizing literacy and thinking (i.e. interpreting Torah) might explain why Judaism outlived contemporary religion. But if Judaism was filled with “practical usefulness,” why didn’t it become the dominant religion of the region? Further, Christianity is not as focused on broad development of intellectual discipline as Judaism (or so I understand). Plus, consider that scientific progress occurred in the absence of Judeo-Christianity. (i.e. Chinese development of gunpowder, etc).
Does it follow from this theory that we expect cultures lacking Christianity and Judaism as significant influences to develop literacy and research much more slowly and incompletely than those that possessed it? For example, does this theory predict that China mostly lacked literacy and research prior to the arrival of Christian missionaries?
Christianity was an just an example. The theory I am suggesting is that any global religion has existed for this long because it contains attributes beneficial to human survival ( benefits to human survival are not limited to the promotion of literacy; though I would bet that is a key attribute).
I used Christianity as an example because that appears to be the majority of this websites background. Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism are not inferior to Christianity. Confucianism for example strongly promotes literacy as well, one could argue even more than Christianity.
So no, it would be ridiculous to attribute Chinese literacy to western missionaries. What would be interesting is to question to what extent Chinese religious mindsets limited the develop of science as a formal institution in China. The major Chinese transcendental belief systems (Confucianism, Buddhism, Daoism) provide a conception of the universe as singular, dynamic, and consummated; whereas the Judeo-Christian position describes a static, imperfect, and discrete universe. To what extent does a pre-existing belief in a stable order that is waiting to be perfected lead to the primacy of formal science in a society? I think that is a really interesting question.
We take it as self-evident that rationalists would eventually move towards empiricism, but does it makes sense to seek out facts about the world when you axiomatically accept the universe to be a constantly shifting entity? Would there be such a ideology of progress without the Christian mindset of an imperfect world governed by rules waiting for man to discover?
I find it funny that people, on both sides of the argument, put science as opposite to Christianity. The mindsets that set the West up for a scientific revolution are byproducts of Christian thinking.
The theory I am suggesting is that any global religion has existed for this long because it contains attributes beneficial to human survival ( benefits to human survival are not limited to the promotion of literacy; though I would bet that is a key attribute).
Are you familiar with meme theory? A seemingly stronger hypothesis is that global religion has existed for this long because it contains attributes beneficial to survival of global religion.
Edited to add: It is not clear to me that literacy is beneficial (on net) to human survival in an environment with little written knowledge available; there are certainly benefits to be had, but opportunity cost as well. If it is, in fact, directly beneficial, it is also not clear to me why people wouldn’t adopt it in the absence of religion.
To what extent does a pre-existing belief in a stable order that is waiting to be perfected lead to the primacy of formal science in a society? I think that is a really interesting question.
This is a good starting point for inquiry. I would change “does” to “did.” I would also broaden the question to include cons as well as pros, i.e. “To what extent did a philosophy including a pre-existing belief in a stable order that is waiting to be perfected lead to the primacy of formal science in a society?” If there are anti-scientific effects from any philosophy or historical philosophies believing in a stable order, that’s important to keep track of too if one is making a claim about those philosophies and not just their positive aspect.
Religion is the original norm for producing knowledge[.]
I specifically was objecting to “the” and “original”. Religion has never been the only norm for producing knowledge—observation has been prevalent for large classes of knowledge where we don’t even think of applying religion (or formalized science, for that matter). I would also surmise that observation came first.
While a large portion of religious knowledge is orthogonal, I would refrain from defining all knowledge produced by religious means that way. Proving the existence of God and divine order was a large motivator for early academics, scientists to. Without the discourse of a knowable, structured universe that was provided by Christianity empirical investigation might not have taken root the way it did in the west.
I actually think it is quite funny when people pit science against religion when the idea of a ordered discoverable universe stems from the Christian discourse.
Furthermore, what do you think has sustained and developed literacy and research during the centuries before science? Or better question why Judeo-Christian religions were so successful?
I will tell you. Judeo-Christian religions have dominated the religious market because it contains qualities beneficial to survival. In the Jewish faith you become a man or woman by proving that you are literate (reading the torah). That may not seem so revolutionary now, but during a time when most religions were based on blood tributes it was a pretty fucking revolutionary idea.
Again, I am not trying to advocate for Christianity or Judaism to replace science or be the norm for knowledge production. All I am saying is that you cannot deny that they got us where we are. They were the norm.
This claim needs more evidence. Prizing literacy and thinking (i.e. interpreting Torah) might explain why Judaism outlived contemporary religion. But if Judaism was filled with “practical usefulness,” why didn’t it become the dominant religion of the region? Further, Christianity is not as focused on broad development of intellectual discipline as Judaism (or so I understand). Plus, consider that scientific progress occurred in the absence of Judeo-Christianity. (i.e. Chinese development of gunpowder, etc).
Does it follow from this theory that we expect cultures lacking Christianity and Judaism as significant influences to develop literacy and research much more slowly and incompletely than those that possessed it? For example, does this theory predict that China mostly lacked literacy and research prior to the arrival of Christian missionaries?
Christianity was an just an example. The theory I am suggesting is that any global religion has existed for this long because it contains attributes beneficial to human survival ( benefits to human survival are not limited to the promotion of literacy; though I would bet that is a key attribute). I used Christianity as an example because that appears to be the majority of this websites background. Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism are not inferior to Christianity. Confucianism for example strongly promotes literacy as well, one could argue even more than Christianity.
So no, it would be ridiculous to attribute Chinese literacy to western missionaries. What would be interesting is to question to what extent Chinese religious mindsets limited the develop of science as a formal institution in China. The major Chinese transcendental belief systems (Confucianism, Buddhism, Daoism) provide a conception of the universe as singular, dynamic, and consummated; whereas the Judeo-Christian position describes a static, imperfect, and discrete universe. To what extent does a pre-existing belief in a stable order that is waiting to be perfected lead to the primacy of formal science in a society? I think that is a really interesting question.
We take it as self-evident that rationalists would eventually move towards empiricism, but does it makes sense to seek out facts about the world when you axiomatically accept the universe to be a constantly shifting entity? Would there be such a ideology of progress without the Christian mindset of an imperfect world governed by rules waiting for man to discover?
I find it funny that people, on both sides of the argument, put science as opposite to Christianity. The mindsets that set the West up for a scientific revolution are byproducts of Christian thinking.
Are you familiar with meme theory? A seemingly stronger hypothesis is that global religion has existed for this long because it contains attributes beneficial to survival of global religion.
Edited to add: It is not clear to me that literacy is beneficial (on net) to human survival in an environment with little written knowledge available; there are certainly benefits to be had, but opportunity cost as well. If it is, in fact, directly beneficial, it is also not clear to me why people wouldn’t adopt it in the absence of religion.
This is a good starting point for inquiry. I would change “does” to “did.” I would also broaden the question to include cons as well as pros, i.e. “To what extent did a philosophy including a pre-existing belief in a stable order that is waiting to be perfected lead to the primacy of formal science in a society?” If there are anti-scientific effects from any philosophy or historical philosophies believing in a stable order, that’s important to keep track of too if one is making a claim about those philosophies and not just their positive aspect.
Thanks for clarifying.
In the absence of theories of other things that might serve the same purpose, it would seem to necessarily follow from this theory, yes.
I never made any claim about all knowledge.
You wrote:
I specifically was objecting to “the” and “original”. Religion has never been the only norm for producing knowledge—observation has been prevalent for large classes of knowledge where we don’t even think of applying religion (or formalized science, for that matter). I would also surmise that observation came first.