I’m quite confident there is only a language difference
between eliezer’s description and the point a number of you
have just made. Winning versus trying to win are clearly
two different things, and it’s also clear that
“genuinely trying to win” is the best one can do, based
on the definition those in this thread are using. But
Eli’s point on ob was that telling oneself “I’m genuinely
trying to win” often results in less than genuinely trying.
It results in “trying to try”...which means being
satisfied by a display of effort rather than utility maximizing. So instead, he arguesn why not say to oneself the imperative
“Win!”, where he bakes the “try” part into the implicit imperative.
I agree eli’s language usage here may be
slightly non standard for most of us (me included)
and therefore perhaps misleading to the uninitiated,
but I’m doubtful we need to stress about it too
much if the facts are as I’ve stated. Does anyone
disagree? Perhaps one could argue eli should have to say,
“Rational agents should win_eli” and link to an
Explanation like this thread, if we are genuinely concerned
about people getting confused.
I’m quite confident there is only a language difference between eliezer’s description and the point a number of you have just made. Winning versus trying to win are clearly two different things, and it’s also clear that “genuinely trying to win” is the best one can do, based on the definition those in this thread are using. But Eli’s point on ob was that telling oneself “I’m genuinely trying to win” often results in less than genuinely trying. It results in “trying to try”...which means being satisfied by a display of effort rather than utility maximizing. So instead, he arguesn why not say to oneself the imperative “Win!”, where he bakes the “try” part into the implicit imperative. I agree eli’s language usage here may be slightly non standard for most of us (me included) and therefore perhaps misleading to the uninitiated, but I’m doubtful we need to stress about it too much if the facts are as I’ve stated. Does anyone disagree? Perhaps one could argue eli should have to say, “Rational agents should win_eli” and link to an Explanation like this thread, if we are genuinely concerned about people getting confused.
Eliezer seems to be talking about actually winning—e.g.: “Achieving a win is much harder than achieving an expectation of winning”.
He’s been doing this pretty consistently for a while now—including on his administrator’s page on the topic:
“Instrumental rationality: achieving your values.”
http://lesswrong.com/lw/31/what_do_we_mean_by_rationality/
That is why this discussion is still happening.