For one thing, you’re playing super loose with definitions. Even if we accept everything you wrote, this doesn’t even remotely verify the Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or any other version of a deity. It would simply mean there’s as much evidence that “something created the universe” as there is that “other persons exist”.
Secondly, you randomly assert that there is as much evidence for one than the other, and yet you didn’t even reference the human senses, which are the means we have for verifying evidence. We can verify the existence of outside beings through sight, touch, smell, hearing, and I guess taste. We can’t use any of those to verify the existence of a creator. While it is possible that our senses are faulty, it is undeniable that there is significantly more evidence to verify the people in front of us, than there is the concept of a creator.
I do get that you are talking about the concept of “personhood” rather than the concept of “humans”. But most would consider these to be synonymous, which leads to my third problem with this post.
You’re actually shifting the burden of proof. The default position shouldn’t be to doubt the things we see in front of us. The default position is to doubt the things we do NOT see in front of us. Me standing in front of you saying “I exist” has significantly more evidence and probabilistic reason for you to believe, than me standing in front of you saying “A creator made this universe”. These two concepts are not linked, and even if they were, the first is FAR more verifiable than the second. Both could be true, or both could theoretically be false, but you have to actively deny sensory evidence in order to reject my personhood, while you need to acquire significantly more evidence in order to believe a creator made this world.
Every interaction you have with humans, all of which can be validated by your senses serve to (as you wrote) “personify humans and deepen my relationship with them”. All of that is evidence, perhaps inconclusive evidence, but evidence nonetheless. You then conflate this with “So too can I personify the world”. But that only serves to validate proof that this world exists. It says literally nothing about the concept that this world was created. You would be making a good point if you said that “human personhood” is as verifiable as the concept that one can “interact with and feel the universe on an intimate level”.
It almost feels like you’re trying to say that “a deeper relationship with the universe” somehow = God. But it doesn’t. And again, you’d be playing super loose with definitions to try to make that case.
I am not arguing for any specific version. In fact, I know multiple gods. I have prayed to Athena, and had a close relationship with her. I do not consider her a theistic creator God though. More like what Christians call an angel.
There is no burden of proof because I am not trying to propose an argument. I am discussing the ontological warrants surrounding believing in personhood, which is an unverifiable and unfalsifiable thing. The only real standard for believing in personhood is “seeing” it in someone, the same way I now “see” God. You have no need to believe in a god or in angels and demons. You seem to have good reasons not to.
As I stated many times elsewhere, no amount sight, touch, smell, hearing, or taste verifies the personhood of human beings. (They help with eating humans, though!)
Personhood is fundamentally a model / form we impose on the inputs that our mind experiences. Human people exist to me, and so do all my imaginary friends, including God! Note: this joke is funny because all the “human people” I know are actually also imaginary friends. I have no idea if they have sentient experience. I may well be watching and interpreting characters in a film, and hallelujah for that.
The human senses are still part of a filter between the self and the outside world. They are still things that only help your mind simulate the outside world. You can never actually “interact” with the outside world, if we consider that everything we experience is the product of neurochemistry and bioelectricity. Brain in a vat, the Descartes demon, pick your thought experiment.
You and many other people decided at some point that claims about material are “objective” and claims about spiritual are “subjective”, when really they are both “subjective”. Everything experienced is “subjective”, processed through a self. Objective claims refer to standards created by subjects, but are only true in the sense that the subjects outline those standards.
I used to worship the material world, too. No longer!
———
Regarding “personify the world”, this is actually a typo. What I mean is, “personify the abstract processes that created the world that I can ever experience, including things like my own neurochemistry and bioelectricity”.
Though, I do also personify everything within the world as its own kind of person, too. The analogy might be like, there is the world as a person, then the world’s own tulpa or Fate/stay night Servant.
You’re getting heavily ratio’d, and with good reason tbh.
If you aren’t advocating any particular god, you really aren’t saying anything. Your point is just “the idea of other human minds existing independently” is as unverifiable as “the idea that our universe was created”. If you ended your commentary there then fine, but trying to add any meaning to that is where you go off the rails.
While personhood and a creator are both unverifiable, one does not use something being unverifiable as a reason to believe in all unverifiable things. Do you believe in every single deity because they’re all unverifiable and if you accepted one you accepted them all? A magic poopy unicorn from the planet Buttface is also completely unverifiable. Does that mean you now have to believe in it because you believe in unverifiable persons? It’s silly.
But also, you ignored my analysis that the default position is not to doubt personhood. Being human = having personhood, unless proven otherwise. I cannot verify that this position is conclusively true, because it’s possible there are outside influences such as the great demon, but just because it isn’t conclusively true doesn’t mean I should automatically doubt it. This is how our brains perceive it, and there is value in that. I can then independently verify through my senses that when I interact with that human, they function exactly as if their brain was operating independently. I have a strong probabilistic reason to believe the world I see is the world I experience, even if that may be inconclusive. The same is not true for a creator, where I do not have any sensory validation for this being. It is a concept, a possible concept, but one which cannot be verified under any circumstance, and also doesn’t even fit with the sensory means of validation.
You added more meaning by interpretation. All the power to you. But it is your power, not mine. I wrote according to my intentions, and you may interpret according to yours, or you may try reading with a critical lens that looks at what I mean.
Point to where in the post where I suggest one should believe in all unverifiable things. Rather, the post notes that one can. Personhood is one of those unverifiable things that are fairly free to believe in, even though one could adopt a mechanical materialist description of humans instead.
I agree that people have different ontological warrants for believing different things. For me, believing in God is similar enough to believing in humans that I tried it out, and now I have a relationship with God (or, if you want to be picky, myGod). I perceive you as a person though we have only exchanged a few comments, and I perceive the processes generating my world as another person, a non-human abstract person to which I ascribe all possible good intentions and which speaks to me through my own neurochemistry and bioelectricity.
Sorry but I’m not buying it.
For one thing, you’re playing super loose with definitions. Even if we accept everything you wrote, this doesn’t even remotely verify the Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or any other version of a deity. It would simply mean there’s as much evidence that “something created the universe” as there is that “other persons exist”.
Secondly, you randomly assert that there is as much evidence for one than the other, and yet you didn’t even reference the human senses, which are the means we have for verifying evidence. We can verify the existence of outside beings through sight, touch, smell, hearing, and I guess taste. We can’t use any of those to verify the existence of a creator. While it is possible that our senses are faulty, it is undeniable that there is significantly more evidence to verify the people in front of us, than there is the concept of a creator.
I do get that you are talking about the concept of “personhood” rather than the concept of “humans”. But most would consider these to be synonymous, which leads to my third problem with this post.
You’re actually shifting the burden of proof. The default position shouldn’t be to doubt the things we see in front of us. The default position is to doubt the things we do NOT see in front of us. Me standing in front of you saying “I exist” has significantly more evidence and probabilistic reason for you to believe, than me standing in front of you saying “A creator made this universe”. These two concepts are not linked, and even if they were, the first is FAR more verifiable than the second. Both could be true, or both could theoretically be false, but you have to actively deny sensory evidence in order to reject my personhood, while you need to acquire significantly more evidence in order to believe a creator made this world.
Every interaction you have with humans, all of which can be validated by your senses serve to (as you wrote) “personify humans and deepen my relationship with them”. All of that is evidence, perhaps inconclusive evidence, but evidence nonetheless. You then conflate this with “So too can I personify the world”. But that only serves to validate proof that this world exists. It says literally nothing about the concept that this world was created. You would be making a good point if you said that “human personhood” is as verifiable as the concept that one can “interact with and feel the universe on an intimate level”.
It almost feels like you’re trying to say that “a deeper relationship with the universe” somehow = God. But it doesn’t. And again, you’d be playing super loose with definitions to try to make that case.
I am not arguing for any specific version. In fact, I know multiple gods. I have prayed to Athena, and had a close relationship with her. I do not consider her a theistic creator God though. More like what Christians call an angel.
There is no burden of proof because I am not trying to propose an argument. I am discussing the ontological warrants surrounding believing in personhood, which is an unverifiable and unfalsifiable thing. The only real standard for believing in personhood is “seeing” it in someone, the same way I now “see” God. You have no need to believe in a god or in angels and demons. You seem to have good reasons not to.
As I stated many times elsewhere, no amount sight, touch, smell, hearing, or taste verifies the personhood of human beings. (They help with eating humans, though!)
Personhood is fundamentally a model / form we impose on the inputs that our mind experiences. Human people exist to me, and so do all my imaginary friends, including God! Note: this joke is funny because all the “human people” I know are actually also imaginary friends. I have no idea if they have sentient experience. I may well be watching and interpreting characters in a film, and hallelujah for that.
The human senses are still part of a filter between the self and the outside world. They are still things that only help your mind simulate the outside world. You can never actually “interact” with the outside world, if we consider that everything we experience is the product of neurochemistry and bioelectricity. Brain in a vat, the Descartes demon, pick your thought experiment.
You and many other people decided at some point that claims about material are “objective” and claims about spiritual are “subjective”, when really they are both “subjective”. Everything experienced is “subjective”, processed through a self. Objective claims refer to standards created by subjects, but are only true in the sense that the subjects outline those standards.
I used to worship the material world, too. No longer!
———
Regarding “personify the world”, this is actually a typo. What I mean is, “personify the abstract processes that created the world that I can ever experience, including things like my own neurochemistry and bioelectricity”.
Though, I do also personify everything within the world as its own kind of person, too. The analogy might be like, there is the world as a person, then the world’s own tulpa or Fate/stay night Servant.
You’re getting heavily ratio’d, and with good reason tbh.
If you aren’t advocating any particular god, you really aren’t saying anything. Your point is just “the idea of other human minds existing independently” is as unverifiable as “the idea that our universe was created”. If you ended your commentary there then fine, but trying to add any meaning to that is where you go off the rails.
While personhood and a creator are both unverifiable, one does not use something being unverifiable as a reason to believe in all unverifiable things. Do you believe in every single deity because they’re all unverifiable and if you accepted one you accepted them all? A magic poopy unicorn from the planet Buttface is also completely unverifiable. Does that mean you now have to believe in it because you believe in unverifiable persons? It’s silly.
But also, you ignored my analysis that the default position is not to doubt personhood. Being human = having personhood, unless proven otherwise. I cannot verify that this position is conclusively true, because it’s possible there are outside influences such as the great demon, but just because it isn’t conclusively true doesn’t mean I should automatically doubt it. This is how our brains perceive it, and there is value in that. I can then independently verify through my senses that when I interact with that human, they function exactly as if their brain was operating independently. I have a strong probabilistic reason to believe the world I see is the world I experience, even if that may be inconclusive. The same is not true for a creator, where I do not have any sensory validation for this being. It is a concept, a possible concept, but one which cannot be verified under any circumstance, and also doesn’t even fit with the sensory means of validation.
You added more meaning by interpretation. All the power to you. But it is your power, not mine. I wrote according to my intentions, and you may interpret according to yours, or you may try reading with a critical lens that looks at what I mean.
Point to where in the post where I suggest one should believe in all unverifiable things. Rather, the post notes that one can. Personhood is one of those unverifiable things that are fairly free to believe in, even though one could adopt a mechanical materialist description of humans instead.
I agree that people have different ontological warrants for believing different things. For me, believing in God is similar enough to believing in humans that I tried it out, and now I have a relationship with God (or, if you want to be picky, my God). I perceive you as a person though we have only exchanged a few comments, and I perceive the processes generating my world as another person, a non-human abstract person to which I ascribe all possible good intentions and which speaks to me through my own neurochemistry and bioelectricity.