In nearly all countries you need a permit to build a nuclear reactor, and said permits are frequently denied for political reasons. Not to mention that the biggest risk of building a nuclear power plant is probably having it shutdown by anti-nuclear activists before you can recoup the cost of building it.
That second point is particularly important. Since present governments cannot reliably bind future governments, credibility is a big issue with any politically-sensitive project with a long time horizon.
No, the economy is missing out on an easy way to get rich. No one person is missing out on an easy way to get rich. China wants to build LFTRs but can’t solve some sort of hiring problem (I have friends who’ve been offered positions in China, and the Chinese definitely think their academic culture is inferior to Western academic culture, and they appear to be correct).
Also I am generally quite willing to believe people are crazy.
No patents on nuclear physics—If someone proves that LFTR is commercially viable, every reactor vendor will have a model out the year after. Heck players that are currently not in the reactor game at all would likely pile in.
This would be a very good thing for the economy and the environment, but it means the incentives are ass-backwards for actually doing this for any actors other than national governments.
.. No, lets be honest here: “France, China, India”. With a dark horse bet on the Czechs. Those are the only four players likely to cast steel and pour concrete. If you want it done quickly, sell François Hollande on the idea as a way out of the economic mess.
The technology is 50 + years old, and all the materials engineering and chemistry work since is in the public literature, because almost all of it has been done on the dime of various publics. If someone implements a MSR and it proves cheap to build and a reliable machine in practice, that is going to involve good engineering and design practice, but absolutely nothing any patent board that is not utterly corrupt would class as a breakthrough.
Not to mention that putting up legal barriers to implementation would violate both common practice, and at a minimum the spirit of the NPT.
Noone has built one since the initial prototype—or at least, no one outside black initiatives. That’s it. It really should /not/ take 20 years. 20 months, is more like it, if you set sensible design goals.
IE: I want an electricity making machine. Anyone who utters the words “High temperature” “Hydrogen Production” or “enhanced proliferation resistance” will be summarily fired. “Reliability” “Safety” and “Simplicity” are our watchwords. .
Most research on advanced reactor types turn into exercises in extremely advanced materials science due to goals creep—Trying to make a reactor that can safely operate at a temperature of over 900 degrees celcius genuinely is a 20 year project. It is also fracking pointless—the supply of fuel for a thorium breeder is effectively infinite, maximizing thermodynamic efficiency at the cost of engineering difficulty and complexity is the kind of very special stupid that only ever infests smart people.
maximizing thermodynamic efficiency at the cost of engineering difficulty and complexity is the kind of very special stupid that only ever infests smart people.
According to Wikipedia, there are at least 4 groups currently working on LFTRs, one of which is China: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LFTR#Recent_developments
Right. They’re hiring 150 PhD students and it’s still supposed to take 20 years. This seems like a prime instance of the We Can’t Do Anything Effect.
A working LFTR is worth a lot of money. If this is so easy, everyone is missing out on an easy way to get rich.
In nearly all countries you need a permit to build a nuclear reactor, and said permits are frequently denied for political reasons. Not to mention that the biggest risk of building a nuclear power plant is probably having it shutdown by anti-nuclear activists before you can recoup the cost of building it.
That second point is particularly important. Since present governments cannot reliably bind future governments, credibility is a big issue with any politically-sensitive project with a long time horizon.
No, the economy is missing out on an easy way to get rich. No one person is missing out on an easy way to get rich. China wants to build LFTRs but can’t solve some sort of hiring problem (I have friends who’ve been offered positions in China, and the Chinese definitely think their academic culture is inferior to Western academic culture, and they appear to be correct).
Also I am generally quite willing to believe people are crazy.
“Coordination problems are hard.”
Yes, I agree. I don’t understand the surprise, though.
If you are familiar with and agree with the obvious answer then I don’t understand why you asked the question.
I don’t understand why you don’t understand. Here’s the conversation:
EY: “I don’t understand why we don’t do X.”
me: “If it was so easy, people could make $$$.”
EY: “Well, it’s not easy for individuals.”
me: “Well, I agree, so why are you wondering why we don’t do X?”
That does make more sense to me, reading the context with a slightly different emphasis here and there. Retracted.
No patents on nuclear physics—If someone proves that LFTR is commercially viable, every reactor vendor will have a model out the year after. Heck players that are currently not in the reactor game at all would likely pile in. This would be a very good thing for the economy and the environment, but it means the incentives are ass-backwards for actually doing this for any actors other than national governments.
.. No, lets be honest here: “France, China, India”. With a dark horse bet on the Czechs. Those are the only four players likely to cast steel and pour concrete. If you want it done quickly, sell François Hollande on the idea as a way out of the economic mess.
Why shouldn’t there be anything patentable? If Apple can patent the edges of the iPad why shouldn’t there be anything patentable in a LFTR?
The technology is 50 + years old, and all the materials engineering and chemistry work since is in the public literature, because almost all of it has been done on the dime of various publics. If someone implements a MSR and it proves cheap to build and a reliable machine in practice, that is going to involve good engineering and design practice, but absolutely nothing any patent board that is not utterly corrupt would class as a breakthrough. Not to mention that putting up legal barriers to implementation would violate both common practice, and at a minimum the spirit of the NPT.
If that’s true, what’s the core of the uncertainity about whether it’s cheap to build and a reliable machine?
If all the leg work is done, why do the Chinese think they need 20 years of work to build one?
Noone has built one since the initial prototype—or at least, no one outside black initiatives. That’s it. It really should /not/ take 20 years. 20 months, is more like it, if you set sensible design goals.
IE: I want an electricity making machine. Anyone who utters the words “High temperature” “Hydrogen Production” or “enhanced proliferation resistance” will be summarily fired. “Reliability” “Safety” and “Simplicity” are our watchwords. .
Most research on advanced reactor types turn into exercises in extremely advanced materials science due to goals creep—Trying to make a reactor that can safely operate at a temperature of over 900 degrees celcius genuinely is a 20 year project. It is also fracking pointless—the supply of fuel for a thorium breeder is effectively infinite, maximizing thermodynamic efficiency at the cost of engineering difficulty and complexity is the kind of very special stupid that only ever infests smart people.
Now that would make a great quote.