Lucretius in De Rerum Natura in 50 BCE seemed to have a few that were just a bit ahead of everyone else.
Survival of the fittest (book 5):
“In the beginning, there were many freaks. Earth undertook Experiments—bizarrely put together, weird of look Hermaphrodites, partaking of both sexes, but neither; some Bereft of feet, or orphaned of their hands, and others dumb, Being devoid of mouth; and others yet, with no eyes, blind. Some had their limbs stuck to the body, tightly in a bind, And couldn’t do anything, or move, and so could not evade Harm, or forage for bare necessities. And the Earth made Other kinds of monsters too, but in vain, since with each, Nature frowned upon their growth; they were not able to reach The flowering of adulthood, nor find food on which to feed, Nor be joined in the act of Venus.
For all creatures need Many different things, we realize, to multiply And to forge out the links of generations: a supply Of food, first, and a means for the engendering seed to flow Throughout the body and out of the lax limbs; and also so The female and the male can mate, a means they can employ In order to impart and to receive their mutual joy.
Then, many kinds of creatures must have vanished with no trace Because they could not reproduce or hammer out their race. For any beast you look upon that drinks life-giving air, Has either wits, or bravery, or fleetness of foot to spare, Ensuring its survival from its genesis to now.”
Trait inheritance from both parents that could skip generations (book 4):
“Sometimes children take after their grandparents instead, Or great-grandparents, bringing back the features of the dead. This is since parents carry elemental seeds inside – Many and various, mingled many ways – their bodies hide Seeds that are handed, parent to child, all down the family tree. Venus draws features from these out of her shifting lottery – Bringing back an ancestor’s look or voice or hair. Indeed These characteristics are just as much the result of certain seed As are our faces, limbs and bodies. Females can arise From the paternal seed, just as the male offspring, likewise, Can be created from the mother’s flesh. For to comprise A child requires a doubled seed – from father and from mother. And if the child resembles one more closely than the other, That parent gave the greater share – which you can plainly see Whichever gender – male or female – that the child may be.”
Objects of different weights will fall at the same rate in a vacuum (book 2):
“Whatever falls through water or thin air, the rate Of speed at which it falls must be related to its weight, Because the substance of water and the nature of thin air Do not resist all objects equally, but give way faster To heavier objects, overcome, while on the other hand Empty void cannot at any part or time withstand Any object, but it must continually heed Its nature and give way, so all things fall at equal speed, Even though of differing weights, through the still void.”
Often I see people dismiss the things the Epicureans got right with an appeal to their lack of the scientific method, which has always seemed a bit backwards to me. In hindsight, they nailed so many huge topics that didn’t end up emerging again for millennia that it was surely not mere chance, and the fact that they successfully hit so many nails on the head without the hammer we use today indicates (at least to me) that there’s value to looking closer at their methodology.
Which was also super simple:
Step 1: Entertain all possible explanations for things, not prematurely discounting false negatives or embracing false positives.
Step 2: Look for where single explanations can explain multiple phenomena.
While we have a great methodology for testable hypotheses, the scientific method isn’t very useful for untestable fields or topics. And in those cases, I suspect better understanding and appreciation for the Epicurean methodology might yield quite successful ‘counterfactual’ results (it’s served me very well throughout the years, especially coupled with the identification of emerging research trends in things that can be evaluated with the scientific method).
A precursor to Lucretius’s thoughts on natural selection is Empedocles, who we have far fewer surviving writings from, but which is clearly a precursor to Lucretius’ position. Lucretius himself cites & praises Empedocles on this subject.
Do you have a specific verse where you feel like Lucretius praised him on this subject? I only see that he praises him relative to other elementaists before tearing him and the rest apart for what he sees as erroneous thinking regarding their prior assertions around the nature of matter, saying:
“Yet when it comes to fundamentals, there they meet their doom.
These men were giants; when they stumble, they have far to fall:”
(Book 1, lines 740-741)
I agree that he likely was a precursor to the later thinking in suggesting a compository model of life starting from pieces which combined to forms later on, but the lack of the source material makes it hard to truly assign credit.
It’s kind of like how the Greeks claimed atomism originated with the much earlier Mochus of Sidon, but we credit Democritus because we don’t have proof of Mochus at all but we do have the former’s writings. We don’t even so much credit Leucippus, Democritus’s teacher, as much as his student for the same reasons, similar to how we refer to “Plato’s theory of forms” and not “Socrates’ theory of forms.”
In any case, Lucretius oozes praise for Epicurus, comparing him to a god among men, and while he does say Empedocles was far above his contemporaries saying the same things he was, he doesn’t seem overly deferential to his positions as much as criticizing the shortcomings in the nuances of their theories with a special focus on theories of matter. I don’t think there’s much direct influence on Lucretius’s thinking around proto-evolution, even if there’s arguably plausible influence on Epicurus’s which in turn informed Lucretius.
Add, too, whoever make the primal stuff Twofold, by joining air to fire, and earth To water; add who deem that things can grow Out of the four- fire, earth, and breath, and rain; As first Empedocles of Acragas, Whom that three-cornered isle of all the lands Bore on her coasts, around which flows and flows In mighty bend and bay the Ionic seas, Splashing the brine from off their gray-green waves. Here, billowing onward through the narrow straits, Swift ocean cuts her boundaries from the shores Of the Italic mainland. Here the waste Charybdis; and here Aetna rumbles threats To gather anew such furies of its flames As with its force anew to vomit fires, Belched from its throat, and skyward bear anew Its lightnings’ flash. And though for much she seem The mighty and the wondrous isle to men, Most rich in all good things, and fortified With generous strength of heroes, she hath ne’er Possessed within her aught of more renown, Nor aught more holy, wonderful, and dear Than this true man. Nay, ever so far and pure The lofty music of his breast divine Lifts up its voice and tells of glories found, That scarce he seems of human stock create.
Of these [sc. the four-element theorists] the foremost is Empedocles of Acragas, born within the three-cornered terres- trial coasts of the island [Sicily] around which the Ionian Sea, flowing with its great windings, sprays the brine from its green waves, and from whose boundaries the rushing sea with its narrow strait divides the coasts of the Aeolian land with its waves. Here is destructive Charybdis, and here the rumblings of Etna give warning that they are once more gathering the wrath of their flames so that her violence may again spew out the fire flung from her jaws and hurl once more to the sky the lightning flashes of flame. Although this great region seems in many ways worthy of admiration by the human races, and is said to deserve visiting for its wealth of good things and the great stock of men that fortify it, yet it appears to have had in it nothing more illustrious than this man, nor more holy, admirable, and pre- cious. What is more, the poems sprung from his godlike mind call out and expound his illustrious discoveries, so that he scarcely seems to be born of mortal stock.
Have you read Michel Serres’s The Birth of Physics? He suggests that the Epicureans and Lucretius in particular have worked out a serious theory of physics that’s closer to thermodynamics and fluid mechanics than Newtonian physics
Often I see people dismiss the things the Epicureans got right with an appeal to their lack of the scientific method, which has always seemed a bit backwards to me.
The most important thing, I think, is not even hitting the nail on the head, but knowing (i.e. really acknowledging) that a nail can be hit in multiple places. If you know that, the rest is just a matter of testing.
Lucretius in De Rerum Natura in 50 BCE seemed to have a few that were just a bit ahead of everyone else.
Survival of the fittest (book 5):
“In the beginning, there were many freaks. Earth undertook Experiments—bizarrely put together, weird of look Hermaphrodites, partaking of both sexes, but neither; some Bereft of feet, or orphaned of their hands, and others dumb, Being devoid of mouth; and others yet, with no eyes, blind. Some had their limbs stuck to the body, tightly in a bind, And couldn’t do anything, or move, and so could not evade Harm, or forage for bare necessities. And the Earth made Other kinds of monsters too, but in vain, since with each, Nature frowned upon their growth; they were not able to reach The flowering of adulthood, nor find food on which to feed, Nor be joined in the act of Venus.
For all creatures need Many different things, we realize, to multiply And to forge out the links of generations: a supply Of food, first, and a means for the engendering seed to flow Throughout the body and out of the lax limbs; and also so The female and the male can mate, a means they can employ In order to impart and to receive their mutual joy.
Then, many kinds of creatures must have vanished with no trace Because they could not reproduce or hammer out their race. For any beast you look upon that drinks life-giving air, Has either wits, or bravery, or fleetness of foot to spare, Ensuring its survival from its genesis to now.”
Trait inheritance from both parents that could skip generations (book 4):
“Sometimes children take after their grandparents instead, Or great-grandparents, bringing back the features of the dead. This is since parents carry elemental seeds inside – Many and various, mingled many ways – their bodies hide Seeds that are handed, parent to child, all down the family tree. Venus draws features from these out of her shifting lottery – Bringing back an ancestor’s look or voice or hair. Indeed These characteristics are just as much the result of certain seed As are our faces, limbs and bodies. Females can arise From the paternal seed, just as the male offspring, likewise, Can be created from the mother’s flesh. For to comprise A child requires a doubled seed – from father and from mother. And if the child resembles one more closely than the other, That parent gave the greater share – which you can plainly see Whichever gender – male or female – that the child may be.”
Objects of different weights will fall at the same rate in a vacuum (book 2):
“Whatever falls through water or thin air, the rate Of speed at which it falls must be related to its weight, Because the substance of water and the nature of thin air Do not resist all objects equally, but give way faster To heavier objects, overcome, while on the other hand Empty void cannot at any part or time withstand Any object, but it must continually heed Its nature and give way, so all things fall at equal speed, Even though of differing weights, through the still void.”
Often I see people dismiss the things the Epicureans got right with an appeal to their lack of the scientific method, which has always seemed a bit backwards to me. In hindsight, they nailed so many huge topics that didn’t end up emerging again for millennia that it was surely not mere chance, and the fact that they successfully hit so many nails on the head without the hammer we use today indicates (at least to me) that there’s value to looking closer at their methodology.
Which was also super simple:
Step 1: Entertain all possible explanations for things, not prematurely discounting false negatives or embracing false positives.
Step 2: Look for where single explanations can explain multiple phenomena.
While we have a great methodology for testable hypotheses, the scientific method isn’t very useful for untestable fields or topics. And in those cases, I suspect better understanding and appreciation for the Epicurean methodology might yield quite successful ‘counterfactual’ results (it’s served me very well throughout the years, especially coupled with the identification of emerging research trends in things that can be evaluated with the scientific method).
A precursor to Lucretius’s thoughts on natural selection is Empedocles, who we have far fewer surviving writings from, but which is clearly a precursor to Lucretius’ position. Lucretius himself cites & praises Empedocles on this subject.
Do you have a specific verse where you feel like Lucretius praised him on this subject? I only see that he praises him relative to other elementaists before tearing him and the rest apart for what he sees as erroneous thinking regarding their prior assertions around the nature of matter, saying:
“Yet when it comes to fundamentals, there they meet their doom. These men were giants; when they stumble, they have far to fall:”
(Book 1, lines 740-741)
I agree that he likely was a precursor to the later thinking in suggesting a compository model of life starting from pieces which combined to forms later on, but the lack of the source material makes it hard to truly assign credit.
It’s kind of like how the Greeks claimed atomism originated with the much earlier Mochus of Sidon, but we credit Democritus because we don’t have proof of Mochus at all but we do have the former’s writings. We don’t even so much credit Leucippus, Democritus’s teacher, as much as his student for the same reasons, similar to how we refer to “Plato’s theory of forms” and not “Socrates’ theory of forms.”
In any case, Lucretius oozes praise for Epicurus, comparing him to a god among men, and while he does say Empedocles was far above his contemporaries saying the same things he was, he doesn’t seem overly deferential to his positions as much as criticizing the shortcomings in the nuances of their theories with a special focus on theories of matter. I don’t think there’s much direct influence on Lucretius’s thinking around proto-evolution, even if there’s arguably plausible influence on Epicurus’s which in turn informed Lucretius.
[edit: nevermind I see you already know about the following quotes. There’s other evidence of the influence in Sedley’s book I link below]
In De Reum Natura around line 716:
Or for a more modern translation from Sedley’s Lucretius and the Transformation of Greek Wisdom
Very cool! I used to think Hume was the most ahead of his time, but this seems like the same feat if not better.
Democritus also has a decent claim to that for being the first to imagine atoms and materialism altogether.
Though the Greeks actually credited the idea to an even earlier Phonecian, Mochus of Sidon.
Through when it comes to antiquity credit isn’t really “first to publish” as much as “first of the last to pass the survivorship filter.”
Have you read Michel Serres’s The Birth of Physics? He suggests that the Epicureans and Lucretius in particular have worked out a serious theory of physics that’s closer to thermodynamics and fluid mechanics than Newtonian physics
The most important thing, I think, is not even hitting the nail on the head, but knowing (i.e. really acknowledging) that a nail can be hit in multiple places. If you know that, the rest is just a matter of testing.
~Don’t aim for the correct solution, (first) aim for understanding the space of possible solutions