Right. In canon, Snape didn’t want to win that fight. Also in canon, Snape is the only wizard besides Voldemort who can fly without a broomstick, although the movie subverts this. One also notes that a half-blood was accepted into the Death Eaters and presumably not for his wealth or family connections. More to the point, in MoR there’s a sharper distinction between powerful wizards and non-powerful ones; powerful wizards have taken an interest in ancient riddles, they have delved into secrets, they have found sources of lore that cannot be learned from books. Professor McGonagall knows a hell of a lot about Transfiguration, but she hasn’t gone down that road.
Even so, the gap between a “powerful wizard” like Snape and, say, Dumbledore, is rather large. Dumbledore strolls through Amelia Bones’s wards like they were water, and Bones, in this fic, is an ancient and experienced witch. Forty-four simultaneous strikes from upper-year Hogwarts students will definitely bring down Madam Bones, maybe even if she does have time to reinforce and strengthen her shields. Dumbledore would wave the Elder Wand, once.
Almost definitely not. Dumbledore is, in canon (and I presume in MoR), probably the most powerful wizard in centuries. He defeated the holder of the Elder Wand in a duel (which was believed to be impossible) at 64. While Snape is in his early thirties, it seems unlikely the extra three decades would make all that much of a difference.
We’re not comparing Dumbledore in his thirties to Snape in his thirties, but Snape in his thirties to AD at “64”. If we assume that he’s been using his time turner since age 11, like HP (though based on his backstory, it seems he got a large intelligence boost at 10, so that might be where he started), he’s effectively over 77 when he fought Grindelwald, giving Snape upwards of 4 decades (longer than he has lived thus far) to reach Grindelwald-defeating levels of power. In addition, we know that Snape has good reasons to hide how powerful he is (especially in MoR) and has a substantial amount of muggle knowledge. These all indicate that he’s in the same league as Dumbledore, but benefits from not broadcasting the fact. This would also explain the way he was described in MoR.
And...
...the book said that a successful Legilimens was extremely rare, rarer than a perfect Occlumens, because almost no one had enough mental discipline.
Mental discipline?
Harry had collected stories about a man who routinely lost his temper in class and blew up at young children.
...but this same man, when Harry had spoken of the Dark Lord still being alive, had responded instantly and perfectly—reacting in precisely the way that someone completely ignorant would react.
The man stalked about Hogwarts with the air of an assassin, radiating danger...
...which was exactly not what a real assassin should do. Real assassins should look like meek little accountants until they killed you.
He was the Head of House for proud and aristocratic Slytherin, and he wore a robe with spotted stains from bits of potions and ingredients, which two minutes of magic could have removed.
Harry noticed that he was confused.
And his threat estimate of the Head of House Slytherin shot up astronomically.
We’re not comparing Dumbledore in his thirties to Snape in his thirties, but Snape in his thirties to AD at “64”.
Right; by ‘extra decade’ I meant another decade above the three Dumbledore was already older than Snape.
It seems unlikely to me that what made Dumbledore able to defeat Grindelwald at ~78 was that he was 78, rather than that he was Dumbledore. From EY several comments above:
Bones, in this fic, is an ancient and experienced witch. Forty-four simultaneous strikes from upper-year Hogwarts students will definitely bring down Madam Bones, maybe even if she does have time to reinforce and strengthen her shields. Dumbledore would wave the Elder Wand, once.
We do know now that Dumbledore had a phoenix to help him out in the duel with Grindelwald, and so we might suppose that the equipment advantage was balanced between the two instead of heavily favoring Grindelwald. (My impression is that the Elder Wand is better to have than a phoenix in a duel, but that’s just an impression.)
But I don’t know what Dumbledore looked like in his early thirties. We see him at 18 and then at 64, and perhaps he passed through where Snape is now at about thirty. My guess is not.
You know, I didn’t realize until just now what it was that seemed off about Draco’s account of the duel with Grindelwald. He said (quote) “there’s no way two wizards would be so exactly matched that they’d fight for twenty whole hours until one of them fell over from exhaustion”, and used this improbability as evidence that the fight had been staged.
Fact from canon that I don’t believe has been mentioned in MoR (and thus may not be MoR canon): Gur Ryqre Jnaq unf gur negvsnpg-yriry cebcregl bs ‘haorngnoyr va pbzong’, ohg jvryqref pbhyq or xvyyrq ol, sbe vafgnapr, nffnffvangvat gurz va gurve fyrrc.
Speculation: Qhzoyrqber pbhyqa’g npghnyyl qrsrng gur Ryqre Jnaq va n qhry- ur whfg bhgynfgrq vgf jvryqre.
It seems obvious in retrospect, but since I didn’t think of it until now maybe others haven’t either. Unless you have some other reason to think it was faked...?
Gur Ryqre Jnaq unf gur negvsnpg-yriry cebcregl bs ‘haorngnoyr va pbzong’, ohg jvryqref pbhyq or xvyyrq ol, sbe vafgnapr, nffnffvangvat gurz va gurve fyrrc.
Is this fact in canon? That seems to be the legend but I don’t think it was ever explicitly confirmed.
I don’t have my copy of HP7 or Tales of Beedle the Bard, but the Elder Wand article in the Harry Potter wiki seems to cite Dumbledore disagreeing with this statement in his commentary on Bard.
Yes, but it’s not clear that this means the same thing. Killing in their sleep somebody who relied on the Elder Wand for protection makes you the new master of the wand, but you didn’t defeat them in a duel.
I believe she stated that Qhzoyrqber jnf vasnghngrq jvgu Tevaqryjnyq, naq Tevaqryjnyq xarj vg, ohg qvqa’g erpvcebpngr.
I think that the whole thing about the wielder of the Elder Wand being unbeatable in a duel was mythic exaggeration in the original canon; it was just a lot more powerful than ordinary wands.
You are correct about their relationship. Notice also that Ariana died when Dumbledore was 18 and Grindelwald was 16. (The whole Dumbledore-Grindelwald timeline is sort of screwy, since they part ways and then fight 46 years later, and yet the duel isn’t really separated from their impetuous youth in most of the descriptions I’ve seen.)
I think that the whole thing about the wielder of the Elder Wand being unbeatable in a duel was mythic exaggeration in the original canon; it was just a lot more powerful than ordinary wands.
Very possibly, especially given that the Deathly Hallows are seen as mythical rather than real by most wizards. Even so, beating someone with a strong equipment edge (and presumably a strong Dark ritual edge) through virtue of superior talent, intelligence, and endurance is remarkable. It would be one thing if, like Grindelwald, he stole the wand from its previous owner, or like the second owner he murdered Grindelwald in the middle of the night. Instead, he stood up to a oblubbq pehfu for 20 hours, waiting for his opponent to surrender through exhaustion.
Which explains why Dumbledore might wait (ETA: wait to fight Grindelwald, I mean, not draw out the fight once it started), without wanting to deceive the world or having the motives Draco ascribes to him. It makes Albus look bad in a different way, but given our other knowledge I think it counts as evidence against your interpretation.
Right. In canon, Snape didn’t want to win that fight. Also in canon, Snape is the only wizard besides Voldemort who can fly without a broomstick, although the movie subverts this. One also notes that a half-blood was accepted into the Death Eaters and presumably not for his wealth or family connections. More to the point, in MoR there’s a sharper distinction between powerful wizards and non-powerful ones; powerful wizards have taken an interest in ancient riddles, they have delved into secrets, they have found sources of lore that cannot be learned from books. Professor McGonagall knows a hell of a lot about Transfiguration, but she hasn’t gone down that road.
Even so, the gap between a “powerful wizard” like Snape and, say, Dumbledore, is rather large. Dumbledore strolls through Amelia Bones’s wards like they were water, and Bones, in this fic, is an ancient and experienced witch. Forty-four simultaneous strikes from upper-year Hogwarts students will definitely bring down Madam Bones, maybe even if she does have time to reinforce and strengthen her shields. Dumbledore would wave the Elder Wand, once.
typo
Is Snape as powerful as Dumbledore was at his age?
Almost definitely not. Dumbledore is, in canon (and I presume in MoR), probably the most powerful wizard in centuries. He defeated the holder of the Elder Wand in a duel (which was believed to be impossible) at 64. While Snape is in his early thirties, it seems unlikely the extra three decades would make all that much of a difference.
Keep in mind, in HPMoR, it’s heavily implied that AD’s artificially aged because he’s been overusing time-turners, possibly since his Hogwarts days.
Assuming he’s been using the full 6 hours since age 18, that would only give him an extra decade on Snape.
We’re not comparing Dumbledore in his thirties to Snape in his thirties, but Snape in his thirties to AD at “64”. If we assume that he’s been using his time turner since age 11, like HP (though based on his backstory, it seems he got a large intelligence boost at 10, so that might be where he started), he’s effectively over 77 when he fought Grindelwald, giving Snape upwards of 4 decades (longer than he has lived thus far) to reach Grindelwald-defeating levels of power. In addition, we know that Snape has good reasons to hide how powerful he is (especially in MoR) and has a substantial amount of muggle knowledge. These all indicate that he’s in the same league as Dumbledore, but benefits from not broadcasting the fact. This would also explain the way he was described in MoR.
Right; by ‘extra decade’ I meant another decade above the three Dumbledore was already older than Snape.
It seems unlikely to me that what made Dumbledore able to defeat Grindelwald at ~78 was that he was 78, rather than that he was Dumbledore. From EY several comments above:
We do know now that Dumbledore had a phoenix to help him out in the duel with Grindelwald, and so we might suppose that the equipment advantage was balanced between the two instead of heavily favoring Grindelwald. (My impression is that the Elder Wand is better to have than a phoenix in a duel, but that’s just an impression.)
But I don’t know what Dumbledore looked like in his early thirties. We see him at 18 and then at 64, and perhaps he passed through where Snape is now at about thirty. My guess is not.
That duel was a faked show, it never really happened, at least not in the way people were led to believe it did.
You know, I didn’t realize until just now what it was that seemed off about Draco’s account of the duel with Grindelwald. He said (quote) “there’s no way two wizards would be so exactly matched that they’d fight for twenty whole hours until one of them fell over from exhaustion”, and used this improbability as evidence that the fight had been staged.
Fact from canon that I don’t believe has been mentioned in MoR (and thus may not be MoR canon): Gur Ryqre Jnaq unf gur negvsnpg-yriry cebcregl bs ‘haorngnoyr va pbzong’, ohg jvryqref pbhyq or xvyyrq ol, sbe vafgnapr, nffnffvangvat gurz va gurve fyrrc.
Speculation: Qhzoyrqber pbhyqa’g npghnyyl qrsrng gur Ryqre Jnaq va n qhry- ur whfg bhgynfgrq vgf jvryqre.
It seems obvious in retrospect, but since I didn’t think of it until now maybe others haven’t either. Unless you have some other reason to think it was faked...?
Is this fact in canon? That seems to be the legend but I don’t think it was ever explicitly confirmed.
I don’t have my copy of HP7 or Tales of Beedle the Bard, but the Elder Wand article in the Harry Potter wiki seems to cite Dumbledore disagreeing with this statement in his commentary on Bard.
Yes, but it’s not clear that this means the same thing. Killing in their sleep somebody who relied on the Elder Wand for protection makes you the new master of the wand, but you didn’t defeat them in a duel.
That does fit really well.
It turns out that you were right about the concept but wrong about the source. Not bad.
Unless Dumbledore is lying, of course.
It is strongly implied by canon and Word of God (JKR) that: Qhzoyrqber naq Tevaqryjnyq jrer ybiref.
I believe she stated that Qhzoyrqber jnf vasnghngrq jvgu Tevaqryjnyq, naq Tevaqryjnyq xarj vg, ohg qvqa’g erpvcebpngr.
I think that the whole thing about the wielder of the Elder Wand being unbeatable in a duel was mythic exaggeration in the original canon; it was just a lot more powerful than ordinary wands.
You are correct about their relationship. Notice also that Ariana died when Dumbledore was 18 and Grindelwald was 16. (The whole Dumbledore-Grindelwald timeline is sort of screwy, since they part ways and then fight 46 years later, and yet the duel isn’t really separated from their impetuous youth in most of the descriptions I’ve seen.)
Very possibly, especially given that the Deathly Hallows are seen as mythical rather than real by most wizards. Even so, beating someone with a strong equipment edge (and presumably a strong Dark ritual edge) through virtue of superior talent, intelligence, and endurance is remarkable. It would be one thing if, like Grindelwald, he stole the wand from its previous owner, or like the second owner he murdered Grindelwald in the middle of the night. Instead, he stood up to a oblubbq pehfu for 20 hours, waiting for his opponent to surrender through exhaustion.
Which explains why Dumbledore might wait (ETA: wait to fight Grindelwald, I mean, not draw out the fight once it started), without wanting to deceive the world or having the motives Draco ascribes to him. It makes Albus look bad in a different way, but given our other knowledge I think it counts as evidence against your interpretation.
Malfoy, are you strong enough as a rationalist that you believing that should be strong evidence for us?