It seems important to notice that we don’t have control over when these “shimmying” strategies work, or how. I don’t know the implication of that yet. But it seems awfully important.
A related move is when applying force to sort of push the adaptive entropy out of a certain subsystem so that that subsystem can untangle some of the entropy. Some kinds of meditation are like this: intentionally clearing the mind and settling the body so that there’s a pocket of calmness in defiance of everything relying on non-calmness, precisely because that creates clarity from which you can meaningfully change things and net decrease adaptive entropy.
Two further comments: (a) The main distinction I wanted to get across is while many behaviors fall under the “addiction from” umbrella, there is a whole spectrum of how more or less productive they are, both on their own terms and with respect to the original root cause. (b) I think, but am not sure, I understand what you mean by [let go of the outcome], and my interpretation is different from how the words are received by default. At least for me I cannot actually let go of the outcome psychologically, but what I can do is [expect direct efforts to fail miserably and indirect efforts to be surprisingly fruitful].
Yeah… for some reason, on this particular point, it always does, no matter how I present it. Then people go on to say things that seem related but importantly aren’t. It’s a detail of how this whole dimension works that I’ve never seen how to communicate without it somehow coming across like an attempt to hijack people. Maybe secretly to me some part of me is trying. But FWIW, hijacking is quite explicitly the opposite of what I want. Alas, spelling that out doesn’t help and sometimes just causes people to say they flat-out don’t believe me. So… here we are.
Sure, seems like the issue is not a substantive disagreement, but some combination of a rhetorical tic of yours and the topic itself being hard to talk about.
The main distinction I wanted to get across is while many behaviors fall under the “addiction from” umbrella, there is a whole spectrum of how more or less productive they are, both on their own terms and with respect to the original root cause.
Yep. I’m receiving that. Thank you. That update is still propagating and will do so for a while.
I think, but am not sure, I understand what you mean by [let go of the outcome], and my interpretation is different from how the words are received by default. At least for me I cannot actually let go of the outcome psychologically, but what I can do is [expect direct efforts to fail miserably and indirect efforts to be surprisingly fruitful].
Ah, interesting.
I can’t reliably let go of any given outcome, but there are some places where I can tell I’m “gripping” an outcome and can loosen my “grip”.
(…and then notice what was using that gripping, and do a kind of inner dialogue so as to learn what it’s caring for, and then pass its trust tests, and then the gripping on that particular outcome fully leaves without my adding “trying to let go” to the entropic stack.)
Aiming for indirect efforts still feels a bit to me like “That outcome over there is the important one, but I don’t know how to get there, so I’m gonna try indirect stuff.” It’s still gripping the outcome a little when I imagine doing it.
It sounds like here there’s a combo of (a) inferential gap and (b) something about these indirect strategies I haven’t integrated into my explicit model.
Sure, seems like the issue is not a substantive disagreement, but some combination of a rhetorical tic of yours and the topic itself being hard to talk about.
Two further comments:
(a) The main distinction I wanted to get across is while many behaviors fall under the “addiction from” umbrella, there is a whole spectrum of how more or less productive they are, both on their own terms and with respect to the original root cause.
(b) I think, but am not sure, I understand what you mean by [let go of the outcome], and my interpretation is different from how the words are received by default. At least for me I cannot actually let go of the outcome psychologically, but what I can do is [expect direct efforts to fail miserably and indirect efforts to be surprisingly fruitful].
Sure, seems like the issue is not a substantive disagreement, but some combination of a rhetorical tic of yours and the topic itself being hard to talk about.
Yep. I’m receiving that. Thank you. That update is still propagating and will do so for a while.
Ah, interesting.
I can’t reliably let go of any given outcome, but there are some places where I can tell I’m “gripping” an outcome and can loosen my “grip”.
(…and then notice what was using that gripping, and do a kind of inner dialogue so as to learn what it’s caring for, and then pass its trust tests, and then the gripping on that particular outcome fully leaves without my adding “trying to let go” to the entropic stack.)
Aiming for indirect efforts still feels a bit to me like “That outcome over there is the important one, but I don’t know how to get there, so I’m gonna try indirect stuff.” It’s still gripping the outcome a little when I imagine doing it.
It sounds like here there’s a combo of (a) inferential gap and (b) something about these indirect strategies I haven’t integrated into my explicit model.
Yep.