Somehow, I don’t think saying “You’re doing everything right, your lack of success is the fault of misbehaving others, and I’ll be sure to tell them so if I ever meet the people in your social circle” would have been germane or helpful. Is it possible that people in your social circle aren’t giving you enough of a chance or giving you enough leeway for your quirks? Sure. That’s totally possible. I can’t do anything about that, so I didn’t focus on it.
Secondly, I made no claims about your needs. I made statements of advice conditional on who you might or might not be acquainted with (I identified the relevant and mutually exclusive categories as: nobody, only men who haven’t introduced you to any women, only men who don’t know women, or some women who you find unacceptable). The only “need” that was involved was your interest in finding women who you could date, which, given the thread’s context, was hardly unusual—and I never said it was!
The only “need” that was involved was your interest in finding women who you could date, which, given the thread’s context, was hardly unusual—and I never said it was!
The unusual need was not interest in finding women, but rather, interest in finding women while not having the superabundant resources you falsely assume everyone has. Remember, your original advice was basically, “Hey, just try your luck with one of the million women who have prefiltered you and see who you’re spark-y with.”
a.k.a. “You can’t find any bread? Well, why not just draw down your cake stockpiles?”
You didn’t seem to think that people like me could exist—the very same unfortunate premise people treat you with.
Therefore, you have the resources to take my advice.
Silas has the resources to use your advice same as you, just like Yvain can deal with the neighbor’s noise same as Bill.
As I understand your advice, you are suggesting that the internet is a resource for Silas to either meet people to date, or meet friends who may later introduce him to people to date. There are multiple problems with this syllogism.
It assumes that it is equally easy for males and females to meet people from the internet. There is no reason to believe that this is true, since people consider men more dangerous and like women more. If the reason is for dating, then it it’s going to be even harder for men to meet women online than the reverse. As for online dating websites, they are relatively oversaturated with men and still require a baseline of style and interpersonal skills.
Furthermore, it assumes that the people who will meet men from online are the same as the types of people who will meet women from online. But what if it is difficult for Silas to find women to meet him from online even as new friends, and then only men who want to meet Silas from online have similar challenges and can’t introduce him to many people? We must consider that:
P( person will introduce Silas to potential dates | person meets Silas from online ) < P( person will know potential dates for you | person meets you from online )
Due to these assumption, your posting contains the exact problem observed in the article, where Person A doesn’t think that a certain phenomenon is a problem (whether it be neighbor noise, or meeting people from the internet), and assumes that Person B shouldn’t find it to be a problem either.
I understand why you say that the internet is a resource for expanding one’s social circle, yet I suggest that you consider that the usefulness of this resource may depend on one’s personality and gender, or on an interaction between the two. In general, I would caution people against assumptions that some challenge in dating or relationships is manageable just because it is manageable for people of their gender and personality; at least, any such claims should show knowledge of gender differences in difficulty of particular challenges and how these interact with personality, compensation for biasing factors, or require some empirical evidence that goes beyond individual experience.
Thank you for your thoroughness and clarity. It is possible I was overgeneralizing; I consider myself to be below average in overall social skills, but it is possible that the mere fact that I’m female more than compensates for that deficit. However, I will note that I and many people (including other women) I do know are quite willing to accept online social approaches from people of any gender, as long as there’s something to talk about besides inane, content-free chatroom nonsense. (Examples: fan e-mails or IMs on creative works—both to and from me—have led to extended friendships, and I have a lot of friends of both genders from message boards.)
I consider myself to be below average in overall social skills, but it is possible that the mere fact that I’m female more than compensates for that deficit.
It’s not only possible, but, from everything I understand, very likely. And probably to a far higher degree than you realize.
You’re seriously suggesting that when SilasBarta complained about not having a good procedure for meeting women, your response should have been “The Internet”?!
wow. I hope you don’t write software specifications.
By nit-picking the details here you’re missing the point: that you’re just as quick to write off someone else’s problems as unimportant/easily-solved as others are with your problems (and that this isn’t just something you do but something that people often do).
Somehow, I don’t think saying “You’re doing everything right, your lack of success is the fault of misbehaving others, and I’ll be sure to tell them so if I ever meet the people in your social circle” would have been germane or helpful. Is it possible that people in your social circle aren’t giving you enough of a chance or giving you enough leeway for your quirks? Sure. That’s totally possible. I can’t do anything about that, so I didn’t focus on it.
Secondly, I made no claims about your needs. I made statements of advice conditional on who you might or might not be acquainted with (I identified the relevant and mutually exclusive categories as: nobody, only men who haven’t introduced you to any women, only men who don’t know women, or some women who you find unacceptable). The only “need” that was involved was your interest in finding women who you could date, which, given the thread’s context, was hardly unusual—and I never said it was!
The unusual need was not interest in finding women, but rather, interest in finding women while not having the superabundant resources you falsely assume everyone has. Remember, your original advice was basically, “Hey, just try your luck with one of the million women who have prefiltered you and see who you’re spark-y with.”
a.k.a. “You can’t find any bread? Well, why not just draw down your cake stockpiles?”
You didn’t seem to think that people like me could exist—the very same unfortunate premise people treat you with.
I have met a majority of my close personal friends on the Internet.
Therefore, it is possible to meet people on the Internet.
You have the Internet.
Therefore, you have the resources to take my advice.
I thought that the “you have the Internet” step of the syllogism went without saying, considering our venue.
Silas has the resources to use your advice same as you, just like Yvain can deal with the neighbor’s noise same as Bill.
As I understand your advice, you are suggesting that the internet is a resource for Silas to either meet people to date, or meet friends who may later introduce him to people to date. There are multiple problems with this syllogism.
It assumes that it is equally easy for males and females to meet people from the internet. There is no reason to believe that this is true, since people consider men more dangerous and like women more. If the reason is for dating, then it it’s going to be even harder for men to meet women online than the reverse. As for online dating websites, they are relatively oversaturated with men and still require a baseline of style and interpersonal skills.
Furthermore, it assumes that the people who will meet men from online are the same as the types of people who will meet women from online. But what if it is difficult for Silas to find women to meet him from online even as new friends, and then only men who want to meet Silas from online have similar challenges and can’t introduce him to many people? We must consider that:
P( person will introduce Silas to potential dates | person meets Silas from online ) < P( person will know potential dates for you | person meets you from online )
Due to these assumption, your posting contains the exact problem observed in the article, where Person A doesn’t think that a certain phenomenon is a problem (whether it be neighbor noise, or meeting people from the internet), and assumes that Person B shouldn’t find it to be a problem either.
I understand why you say that the internet is a resource for expanding one’s social circle, yet I suggest that you consider that the usefulness of this resource may depend on one’s personality and gender, or on an interaction between the two. In general, I would caution people against assumptions that some challenge in dating or relationships is manageable just because it is manageable for people of their gender and personality; at least, any such claims should show knowledge of gender differences in difficulty of particular challenges and how these interact with personality, compensation for biasing factors, or require some empirical evidence that goes beyond individual experience.
Thank you for your thoroughness and clarity. It is possible I was overgeneralizing; I consider myself to be below average in overall social skills, but it is possible that the mere fact that I’m female more than compensates for that deficit. However, I will note that I and many people (including other women) I do know are quite willing to accept online social approaches from people of any gender, as long as there’s something to talk about besides inane, content-free chatroom nonsense. (Examples: fan e-mails or IMs on creative works—both to and from me—have led to extended friendships, and I have a lot of friends of both genders from message boards.)
It’s not only possible, but, from everything I understand, very likely. And probably to a far higher degree than you realize.
I agree. Having your friends introduce you to new friends is not to be taken for granted.
I can’t thank you enough for stating all of that so clearly and diplomatically, Hugh.
Great link—I hadn’t seen this essay.
Does anyone know what Baumeister means, though, when he says the following?
You’re seriously suggesting that when SilasBarta complained about not having a good procedure for meeting women, your response should have been “The Internet”?!
wow. I hope you don’t write software specifications.
By nit-picking the details here you’re missing the point: that you’re just as quick to write off someone else’s problems as unimportant/easily-solved as others are with your problems (and that this isn’t just something you do but something that people often do).
That’s not exactly the weak point in your syllogism...
What is, then, the weak point in my syllogism? If it’s that no one you meet on the Internet likes you… I doubt you want my advice about that.