Okay, take government regulation out of the picture. What’s to prevent someone from walking onto your land and taking your stuff? Threat of physical force? They can do the same. If they overpower you, then it’s “their” stuff, at least for now.
Is it bad to take someone’s things under threat of force? Of course! Why? Uhhh… because it’s bad? And we’re back to fundamental morals.
...but as always, fundamental human morals. Nearly universal in our species, certainly, but not inherent to the universe. The essential purpose of government regulation is to use threat of force to demand adherence to certain moral ideas; property rights are no different than any other such norm, other than perhaps being one of the most common such norms.
I see you’ve had a lot of experience arguing with stupid libertarians, but I can assure that you won’t run into such inanity with this libertarian.
The libertarian position is not to object to all force, or to all taking of things by force, but to doing so in contravention of a set of property rights they favor, and I can go into greater detail about what rights those are, but I just want to distinguish it from some general “rejection of force”.
I agree that property rights, like government regulations, act to enforce norms. However, like I mentioned before, there are morally preferable things about “that which we call property rights” compared to “that which would be a government regulation”, and it is there that your equation of the two ceases to be helpful.
I see you’ve had a lot of experience arguing with stupid libertarians, but I can assure that you won’t run into such inanity with this libertarian.
Actually, I try to avoid arguing with stupid people, as it’s rarely productive. Most libertarians are well above average in regard to being non-stupid, which is part of why I find myself arguing with them more often than I should.
I can go into greater detail about what rights those are, but I just want to distinguish it from some general “rejection of force”.
I wouldn’t impose on you to do so. I agree with 95% of what you would likely say and am very unlikely to be persuaded on the remaining 5%.
Anyway, my example of “taking things by force” was not in reference to libertarian positions, but to illustrate what the “natural” state of affairs is. Most people reject this state; this rejection is broadly known as “civilization”.
I agree that property rights, like government regulations, act to enforce norms. However, like I mentioned before, there are morally preferable things about “that which we call property rights” compared to “that which would be a government regulation”, and it is there that your equation of the two ceases to be helpful.
Yes, precisely, but missing my point. They are morally preferable to you, not necessarily to everyone. The distinction between rights and regulation that you are drawing is based on your own moral weights which, as I am guessing you agree, are not inherent to the universe. This distinction between the two, which I agree is important, is derived entirely from the differing moral weights.
In general, a moral principle one thinks is foundational is a “right”. An enforced moral principle one merely accepts is a just law. A moral principle one rejects, or subordinates to a higher principle, is a meddlesome or unjust regulation. Not everyone puts a given moral principle into the same category everyone else does.
This is why I said that your remark above is “realist moral language”, cf. the linked post. Even if you are not (as I assume) a moral realist, you were using language deeply tied to such confusion.
They are morally preferable to you, not necessarily to everyone.
Sure, I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. But nevertheless, a huge part of why I hold those moral preferences is that I believe that they would also better satisfy the values of those who nominally “disagree”. To me, libertarian serves more as a metasystem in which differing value systems can be tested, and the refusal of someone to subject their values to such a test is what makes them suspect to me.
Or at least that’s what my reptilian brain is tricking me into thinking...
I assumed as much, and this is why I was arguing for avoiding language that seemed to imply an objective difference between rights and regulations. The difference is purely a moral one and it behooves us as rationalists to avoid seemingly-objective terminology on things that are at best quirks of human nature. Otherwise we fall into the “Islam is a religion of peace” trap that has been discussed before.
To me, libertarian serves more as a metasystem in which differing value systems can be tested, and the refusal of someone to subject their values to such a test is what makes them suspect to me.
Whereas I tend to see large-scale libertarianism, in the conventional sense of a political organization promoting legislative goals, as being a concerted effort to impose on others an untested, anarchic context that stands a good chance of having dire and difficult to correct failure modes that will reduce the quality of life even for those who didn’t want it, with a side helping of being unwitting pawns of plutocrats who want reduced government where it benefits them but plenty of regulation for everyone else (i.e., mainstream so-called “conservativism”).
Perhaps that clarifies why someone with otherwise more libertarian views than not finds the philosophy disagreeable...
Okay, take government regulation out of the picture. What’s to prevent someone from walking onto your land and taking your stuff? Threat of physical force? They can do the same. If they overpower you, then it’s “their” stuff, at least for now.
Is it bad to take someone’s things under threat of force? Of course! Why? Uhhh… because it’s bad? And we’re back to fundamental morals.
...but as always, fundamental human morals. Nearly universal in our species, certainly, but not inherent to the universe. The essential purpose of government regulation is to use threat of force to demand adherence to certain moral ideas; property rights are no different than any other such norm, other than perhaps being one of the most common such norms.
I see you’ve had a lot of experience arguing with stupid libertarians, but I can assure that you won’t run into such inanity with this libertarian.
The libertarian position is not to object to all force, or to all taking of things by force, but to doing so in contravention of a set of property rights they favor, and I can go into greater detail about what rights those are, but I just want to distinguish it from some general “rejection of force”.
I agree that property rights, like government regulations, act to enforce norms. However, like I mentioned before, there are morally preferable things about “that which we call property rights” compared to “that which would be a government regulation”, and it is there that your equation of the two ceases to be helpful.
Actually, I try to avoid arguing with stupid people, as it’s rarely productive. Most libertarians are well above average in regard to being non-stupid, which is part of why I find myself arguing with them more often than I should.
I wouldn’t impose on you to do so. I agree with 95% of what you would likely say and am very unlikely to be persuaded on the remaining 5%.
Anyway, my example of “taking things by force” was not in reference to libertarian positions, but to illustrate what the “natural” state of affairs is. Most people reject this state; this rejection is broadly known as “civilization”.
Yes, precisely, but missing my point. They are morally preferable to you, not necessarily to everyone. The distinction between rights and regulation that you are drawing is based on your own moral weights which, as I am guessing you agree, are not inherent to the universe. This distinction between the two, which I agree is important, is derived entirely from the differing moral weights.
In general, a moral principle one thinks is foundational is a “right”. An enforced moral principle one merely accepts is a just law. A moral principle one rejects, or subordinates to a higher principle, is a meddlesome or unjust regulation. Not everyone puts a given moral principle into the same category everyone else does.
This is why I said that your remark above is “realist moral language”, cf. the linked post. Even if you are not (as I assume) a moral realist, you were using language deeply tied to such confusion.
Sure, I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. But nevertheless, a huge part of why I hold those moral preferences is that I believe that they would also better satisfy the values of those who nominally “disagree”. To me, libertarian serves more as a metasystem in which differing value systems can be tested, and the refusal of someone to subject their values to such a test is what makes them suspect to me.
Or at least that’s what my reptilian brain is tricking me into thinking...
I assumed as much, and this is why I was arguing for avoiding language that seemed to imply an objective difference between rights and regulations. The difference is purely a moral one and it behooves us as rationalists to avoid seemingly-objective terminology on things that are at best quirks of human nature. Otherwise we fall into the “Islam is a religion of peace” trap that has been discussed before.
Whereas I tend to see large-scale libertarianism, in the conventional sense of a political organization promoting legislative goals, as being a concerted effort to impose on others an untested, anarchic context that stands a good chance of having dire and difficult to correct failure modes that will reduce the quality of life even for those who didn’t want it, with a side helping of being unwitting pawns of plutocrats who want reduced government where it benefits them but plenty of regulation for everyone else (i.e., mainstream so-called “conservativism”).
Perhaps that clarifies why someone with otherwise more libertarian views than not finds the philosophy disagreeable...