Consider the question: why is there such a stigma associated with rationality?
My impression is that it’s because rationality is so general. Well, I don’t think that’s the only reason, but I think it plays a big role.
Think about it:
There’s no stigma associated with trying to be more knowledgeable by, say studying history.
There’s no stigma associated with self improvement. Say, wanting to be more confident.
There’s no stigma associated with… getting in better shape.
There’s no stigma associated with wanting to help people.
But there is with rationality. Maybe it’s because all of those other things are narrow enough that it’s not seen as an attempt to be “better” than others. But since rationality is so general, it is seen as an attempt to be “better” than others.
Of course, the term “better” can be broken into components, and it isn’t so black and white. But my impression is that other people see it as black and white. Sort of—I think they see it as if there’s some sort of threshold where if you cross it, you enter the domain of “better is black and white, and you’re trying to be better than everyone else”.
Consider the question: why is there such a stigma associated with rationality?
I’d start one step earlier: Is there a stigma associated with rationality?
And I would answer “no, there isn’t”. There is a stigma associated with smart but socially awkward people who try to tell others that their thinking is broken, but that’s quite a different thing :-/
How do you interpret the (seemingly hostile) responses to LW/Eliezer on sites like https://news.ycombinator.com/news and reddit? (If you’re familiar with it, that is)
Hostility towards LW/Eliezer doesn’t have any more to do with a general hostility to rationality than does hostility towards Objectivism/Ayn Rand.
Eliezer’s treatment of topics like cryonics, friendly AI, transhumanism, and the many world interpretation of quantum mechanics are more than enough to fuel a debate, even if one agrees that rationality is a worthwhile aspiration. People can disagree with you without being enemies of truth or logic.
LW is weird by mainstream standards. We use inaccessible language. There’s advocacy of ideas like cryonics. We build pillow forts. People think incorrectly we believe in the basilisk.
Being different always produces some hostile responses.
Really, someone who doesn’t like Eliezer or is put off by the LW vibe is suddenly demonstrating “hostility to rationality”?
You think that LW is the sole pure source of rationality in the world? That Eliezer (PBUH) brought True Rationality (tm) into the barbaric world of hoplessly deluded pagans?
The iffy part is the jump from “people hate LW/EY” to “therefore these people hate rationality”. I don’t see any reasons for this to be a valid conclusion.
Good point. I’m less sure that people hate rationality (or really, that they’re put off by it; hate is a strong word). I can’t recall any/much explicit evidence, but when I query my memory, but I’m remembering people responding as if they’re put off by rationality itself. Like the way people talk on HN is as if they’re put off by the concept itself. And that’s the way people seem to respond if I mention that I’m interested in/study rationality. Definitely something that could use more evidence and investigation though.
Well, last night I was hanging out with a friend who I am just starting to get to know. He was noticing how analytical I am and all of that, so in order to clarify, I said that I study rationality and try really really hard to make the best decisions I could, and that rationality helps you do that. I suppose that that situation happens often enough for me. Ie. people noticing my unconventional ways of thinking, and me feeling like I should explain myself a bit.
Alternatively, this happens less often but if I’m in a “deep-ish” conversation and I’m asked some question of the form “what are you interested in” or “what do you care about” or “what are your goals”, I answer truthfully, and to answer truthfully I have to mention rationality and give a brief primer. I don’t always do this though, it depends on the vibe I get. But in the past month or two, it’s actually happened a few times.
He was noticing how analytical I am and all of that, so in order to clarify, I said that I study rationality and try really really hard to make the best decisions I could, and that rationality helps you do that.
The interesting question is whether the thing that puts people of is nothing how analytical you are (i.e. the evidence of rationality) or whether it’s you saying that you try really hard to make the best decisions you can.
Alternatively, this happens less often but if I’m in a “deep-ish” conversation and I’m asked some question of the form “what are you interested in” or “what do you care about” or “what are your goals”, I answer truthfully, and to answer truthfully I have to mention rationality and give a brief primer.
If I ask someone “what do you care about” my reaction to the person is likely not directly related to the content but whether the person is passionate in giving the answer.
In some cases it is probably the other way round, i.e. some people probably started disliking LW and EY (there are several distinct (in some cases overlapping) reasons why some people might not like LW), and only then started to scoff at any mention of rationality, because it gets associated with a thing they dislike.
If what you have in mind is other meanings of the word “rationality”, e.g. what someone who hasn’t even heard of LW might think when they hear this word, the explanation, of course, would be different.
There’s no stigma associated with self improvement. Say, wanting to be more confident.
The sort who can’t last five minutes without bringing up how much they improved will find plenty of stigma.
There’s no stigma associated with wanting to help people.
Provided you don’t become a self-righteous ass about it.
Maybe it’s because all of those other things are narrow enough that it’s not seen as an attempt to be “better” than others. But since rationality is so general, it is seen as an attempt to be “better” than others.
It’s an attitude thing. People will perceive an attempt to be better than others if the individual starts acting the part. Socrates made a lot of enemies with his habit of going around correcting flaws in people’s thinking.
There’s no stigma associated with trying to be more knowledgeable by, say studying history.
The associated word is nerd. There a stigma for that.
There’s no stigma associated with… getting in better shape.
Having the body of a bodybuilder isn’t likely to make you seen as high status in an academic conference.
There’s no stigma associated with self improvement. Say, wanting to be more confident.
There a huge stigma associated with self help.
why is there such a stigma associated with rationality?
Do you mean “rationality” as defined in the LW-Wiki or rationality as the term is commonly understood out there?
Having just been at the LW Community camp in Berlin it’s difficult for me to put a finger on what’s connecting this community. There are people who explicitly don’t label as rationalist but use phrases like “socially optimal” in normal conversation.
It seems that there a clear cluster in which people of this community fall whether or not a person holds various individual beliefs.
Consider the question: why is there such a stigma associated with rationality?
My impression is that it’s because rationality is so general. Well, I don’t think that’s the only reason, but I think it plays a big role.
Think about it:
There’s no stigma associated with trying to be more knowledgeable by, say studying history.
There’s no stigma associated with self improvement. Say, wanting to be more confident.
There’s no stigma associated with… getting in better shape.
There’s no stigma associated with wanting to help people.
But there is with rationality. Maybe it’s because all of those other things are narrow enough that it’s not seen as an attempt to be “better” than others. But since rationality is so general, it is seen as an attempt to be “better” than others.
Of course, the term “better” can be broken into components, and it isn’t so black and white. But my impression is that other people see it as black and white. Sort of—I think they see it as if there’s some sort of threshold where if you cross it, you enter the domain of “better is black and white, and you’re trying to be better than everyone else”.
I’d start one step earlier: Is there a stigma associated with rationality?
And I would answer “no, there isn’t”. There is a stigma associated with smart but socially awkward people who try to tell others that their thinking is broken, but that’s quite a different thing :-/
How do you interpret the (seemingly hostile) responses to LW/Eliezer on sites like https://news.ycombinator.com/news and reddit? (If you’re familiar with it, that is)
Hostility towards LW/Eliezer doesn’t have any more to do with a general hostility to rationality than does hostility towards Objectivism/Ayn Rand.
Eliezer’s treatment of topics like cryonics, friendly AI, transhumanism, and the many world interpretation of quantum mechanics are more than enough to fuel a debate, even if one agrees that rationality is a worthwhile aspiration. People can disagree with you without being enemies of truth or logic.
This disaggreement though is people who are enemies of truth or logic.
LW is weird by mainstream standards. We use inaccessible language. There’s advocacy of ideas like cryonics. We build pillow forts. People think incorrectly we believe in the basilisk.
Being different always produces some hostile responses.
I’m getting a pretty strong impression that there’s more to it than simply being different.
Sorry, not familiar, I’m not much interested in internet dramas unless they are supremely entertaining.
I am sure there are YC people and redditors who don’t like Eliezer and/or LW, but so what?
I see it as demonstrating peoples’ hostility towards rationality.
Really, someone who doesn’t like Eliezer or is put off by the LW vibe is suddenly demonstrating “hostility to rationality”?
You think that LW is the sole pure source of rationality in the world? That Eliezer (PBUH) brought True Rationality (tm) into the barbaric world of hoplessly deluded pagans?
No to all of that. Not necessarily the fact that they’re put off, but the apparent magnitude + the fact that it seems to be shared by a lot of people.
The iffy part is the jump from “people hate LW/EY” to “therefore these people hate rationality”. I don’t see any reasons for this to be a valid conclusion.
Good point. I’m less sure that people hate rationality (or really, that they’re put off by it; hate is a strong word). I can’t recall any/much explicit evidence, but when I query my memory, but I’m remembering people responding as if they’re put off by rationality itself. Like the way people talk on HN is as if they’re put off by the concept itself. And that’s the way people seem to respond if I mention that I’m interested in/study rationality. Definitely something that could use more evidence and investigation though.
Why do you say that in the first place? In what kind of context do you say that?
Well, last night I was hanging out with a friend who I am just starting to get to know. He was noticing how analytical I am and all of that, so in order to clarify, I said that I study rationality and try really really hard to make the best decisions I could, and that rationality helps you do that. I suppose that that situation happens often enough for me. Ie. people noticing my unconventional ways of thinking, and me feeling like I should explain myself a bit.
Alternatively, this happens less often but if I’m in a “deep-ish” conversation and I’m asked some question of the form “what are you interested in” or “what do you care about” or “what are your goals”, I answer truthfully, and to answer truthfully I have to mention rationality and give a brief primer. I don’t always do this though, it depends on the vibe I get. But in the past month or two, it’s actually happened a few times.
The interesting question is whether the thing that puts people of is nothing how analytical you are (i.e. the evidence of rationality) or whether it’s you saying that you try really hard to make the best decisions you can.
If I ask someone “what do you care about” my reaction to the person is likely not directly related to the content but whether the person is passionate in giving the answer.
In some cases it is probably the other way round, i.e. some people probably started disliking LW and EY (there are several distinct (in some cases overlapping) reasons why some people might not like LW), and only then started to scoff at any mention of rationality, because it gets associated with a thing they dislike.
If what you have in mind is other meanings of the word “rationality”, e.g. what someone who hasn’t even heard of LW might think when they hear this word, the explanation, of course, would be different.
The sort who can’t last five minutes without bringing up how much they improved will find plenty of stigma.
Provided you don’t become a self-righteous ass about it.
It’s an attitude thing. People will perceive an attempt to be better than others if the individual starts acting the part. Socrates made a lot of enemies with his habit of going around correcting flaws in people’s thinking.
The associated word is nerd. There a stigma for that.
Having the body of a bodybuilder isn’t likely to make you seen as high status in an academic conference.
There a huge stigma associated with self help.
Do you mean “rationality” as defined in the LW-Wiki or rationality as the term is commonly understood out there?
Having just been at the LW Community camp in Berlin it’s difficult for me to put a finger on what’s connecting this community. There are people who explicitly don’t label as rationalist but use phrases like “socially optimal” in normal conversation. It seems that there a clear cluster in which people of this community fall whether or not a person holds various individual beliefs.
There is resentment of thinking. You are smarter and you know more so you are offensive to them.
My impression is that this isn’t true for smartness/knowledge in general. Ex. math, history, business...
It’s not a function of particular domains, it’s a function of particular people.