As a result of these efforts, I have begun to deliberately invest resources into cultivating some relationships while withdrawing from others. My System 1 self still has a pretty strong ugh field about doing the latter, and my System 2 has to have a very serious talk with my System 1 every time I make a move to distance myself from extant relationships that no longer serve me well.
There are good reasons for that ugh field. Telling people to cut of relationships for which they see no value is a hallmark of cultism. It’s not advise to be given or followed without care.
Yup, that’s the point I was going for above: having a rational take on relationships, as one among many life domains. After all, why invest resources of time, energy, finances, emotions, and so on into a relationship that overall does not serve one well?
This is an area where I think we disagree. I have a strong probabilistic belief that putting resources into relationships that do not serve me well is not rational, as doing so does not serve my goals for relationships. Let me be clear that this intentional managing of relationships applies to an individual as such, not relationships to a group. Cultism to me, by contrast, implies a strong and charismatic group leader telling those who joined her/his group to cut off relationships with others who did not join that group. So maybe a difference between how we see the world here.
Yup, that’s my perception of cultism as well. The goal I’d suggest to pursue is to evaluate intentionally which relationships are beneficial/important, and then shift energy and time into focusing on the ones from which one gets the most benefits.
A cult usually gives their members certain values. The members have those values the get into conflict with individuals with whom they have relationships with don’t share those values. Then the cult member is encouraged to cut of those relationships because they hold back the cult member.
The social default is that you don’t cut of relations with members of your family even if you don’t draw value from those relationships. Groups that do encourage members to cut of their family connection then get seen by other family members as cults.
Members of a cult see other members of the cult has being high value relationships and relationships with outsiders as low value. That leads to group think and not being grounded in society as a whole.
The rationalist who cuts of relationships with everybody who he doesn’t consider to be a rationalist falls under this case if you take the outside view.
with the implication that this is a generally sensible thing to do.
It seems to me that it is.
That ignores the point I made. In the outside view it’s cultish behavior to cut certain relationships just because they provide you no value.
With the inside view you always can find reasons.
I don’t want to say that you should never cut relationships but having a reluctance to do so or recommend others to do is good.
I’ll just point out that I actively cut off relationships with people of no value before I read this. Therefore, your argument that non-cultists don’t cut off relations with zero valu people is incorrect in at least one case and possibly more: as it is the core of your argument, your argument in at least one case and possibly more.
Therefore, your argument that non-cultists don’t cut off relations with zero valu people is incorrect in at least one case and possibly more: as it is the core of your argument, your argument in at least one case and possibly more.
I think you’re reading more into the OP than is there. Family relationships were not the particular subject; no relationships of any specific sort were the subject. Relationships with “everybody who he doesn’t consider to be a rationalist” were not the subject. The last may have been suggested by the context of the Columbus Rationality Meetup, but is there anything more here than “other people persuading each other of things I disagree with”? That does not make a cult.
The social default is that you don’t cut of relations with members of your family even if you don’t draw value from those relationships.
In some of the more unpleasant parts of the world, perhaps. A better default is “you don’t cut off relations with members of your family unless for very strong reasons.” Some people do actually have such reasons.
With the inside view you always can find reasons.
I spy invalidation! A telling sign of a cult, undermining the members’ ability to trust themselves!
Indeed, family relationships as such were not my subject. My point was relationships in general, and the benefits of being intentional about our relationships of all types, family, friends, and romantic alike.
On a separate note, I very much agree that in some cases, with “very strong” reasons, it is appropriate to cut off relationships with family members. I myself had to cut off a relationship with a very close family member who reacted very suboptimally to my wife’s mental health crisis this summer, and put a lot of stress and pressure on her and myself during a time of great stress for the two of us. The “domains of agency” model of thinking helped me make that process of withdrawing from the relationship less painful and more intentional.
There are good reasons for that ugh field. Telling people to cut of relationships for which they see no value is a hallmark of cultism. It’s not advise to be given or followed without care.
Why would I spend energy maintaining a relationship that has no apparent [positive] value?
Yup, that’s the point I was going for above: having a rational take on relationships, as one among many life domains. After all, why invest resources of time, energy, finances, emotions, and so on into a relationship that overall does not serve one well?
This is an area where I think we disagree. I have a strong probabilistic belief that putting resources into relationships that do not serve me well is not rational, as doing so does not serve my goals for relationships. Let me be clear that this intentional managing of relationships applies to an individual as such, not relationships to a group. Cultism to me, by contrast, implies a strong and charismatic group leader telling those who joined her/his group to cut off relationships with others who did not join that group. So maybe a difference between how we see the world here.
Also, my unstudied impression is that cutting out relationships which are important to the subject is the hallmark of cultism.
Yup, that’s my perception of cultism as well. The goal I’d suggest to pursue is to evaluate intentionally which relationships are beneficial/important, and then shift energy and time into focusing on the ones from which one gets the most benefits.
Seems like the opposite to me. But perhaps there is an ambiguity in the deixis:
X advises Y to cut off relationships that X derives no value from: bad.
X advises Y to cut off relationships that Y derives no value from: no problem.
And anyway, the quote is more:
X (the OP) cuts off relationships that X derives no value from, with the implication that this is a generally sensible thing to do.
It seems to me that it is.
A cult usually gives their members certain values. The members have those values the get into conflict with individuals with whom they have relationships with don’t share those values. Then the cult member is encouraged to cut of those relationships because they hold back the cult member.
The social default is that you don’t cut of relations with members of your family even if you don’t draw value from those relationships. Groups that do encourage members to cut of their family connection then get seen by other family members as cults.
Members of a cult see other members of the cult has being high value relationships and relationships with outsiders as low value. That leads to group think and not being grounded in society as a whole.
The rationalist who cuts of relationships with everybody who he doesn’t consider to be a rationalist falls under this case if you take the outside view.
That ignores the point I made. In the outside view it’s cultish behavior to cut certain relationships just because they provide you no value. With the inside view you always can find reasons.
I don’t want to say that you should never cut relationships but having a reluctance to do so or recommend others to do is good.
I’ll just point out that I actively cut off relationships with people of no value before I read this. Therefore, your argument that non-cultists don’t cut off relations with zero valu people is incorrect in at least one case and possibly more: as it is the core of your argument, your argument in at least one case and possibly more.
Causality 101. A → B is not the same as B → A.
I think you’re reading more into the OP than is there. Family relationships were not the particular subject; no relationships of any specific sort were the subject. Relationships with “everybody who he doesn’t consider to be a rationalist” were not the subject. The last may have been suggested by the context of the Columbus Rationality Meetup, but is there anything more here than “other people persuading each other of things I disagree with”? That does not make a cult.
In some of the more unpleasant parts of the world, perhaps. A better default is “you don’t cut off relations with members of your family unless for very strong reasons.” Some people do actually have such reasons.
I spy invalidation! A telling sign of a cult, undermining the members’ ability to trust themselves!
Indeed, family relationships as such were not my subject. My point was relationships in general, and the benefits of being intentional about our relationships of all types, family, friends, and romantic alike.
On a separate note, I very much agree that in some cases, with “very strong” reasons, it is appropriate to cut off relationships with family members. I myself had to cut off a relationship with a very close family member who reacted very suboptimally to my wife’s mental health crisis this summer, and put a lot of stress and pressure on her and myself during a time of great stress for the two of us. The “domains of agency” model of thinking helped me make that process of withdrawing from the relationship less painful and more intentional.