This idea of calorie intake and expenditure being an epiphenomenon… Taubes certainly does say things that seem to suggest that, but what it would even mean for that to be true?
Calorie intake and expenditure are automatically regulated by the body, and in a healthy person, marginal increases or decreases in calorie intake will cause matching changes to both appetite and to energy expenditure, by changing body temperature, fidgeting, and other expendable metabolic processes. Large, forced decreases in calorie intake must cause either a balancing release of energy from fat cells, or a matching reduction in energy expenditure, but unfortunately, it’s likely to be the latter. In that case, the energy expenditure comes from sacrificing metabolic processes that aren’t really expendable, damaging health. Obesity can only occur if this regulatory process is broken somehow. It is more likely to be broken by a high-carbohydrate diet than by a high-fat diet. If it’s broken in someone who’s on a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet, then switching to a high-fat low-carbohydrate diet is likely to fix it.
The previous paragraph is what I believe to be true. I don’t know how well it lines up with what Taubes has said, but I don’t care because Taubes is just a human. It does seem that he’s failed to communicate it clearly, but if you’re going to criticize him for that, the criticism should be delivered in the context of a clear restatement of the same position. If you’re going to go around saying things that are incompatible with the previous, then please address it directly; everything you’ve said so far is at least one step removed, and it’s frustrating because you keep saying things that aren’t even wrong.
Are you saying that at no point of our evolution did our ancestors benefit from gaining a little storage fat in a way that we inherited, and even if they did, the only way to use those stores would be damaging?
Consider that the need for extra fat storage may often be seasonally based. Our bodies could sense upcomnig times of scarcity based on temperature, sunlight, and the types of food available (different fruits or vegetables ripe, etc.)
All of these cues are of course scrambled to various extents in our (understandable) drive for optimal comfort at any time.
Those are good points, and I think there probably has been a conscious component in such behaviour too in later ancestors, and these same cues might affect hunger just as well as metabolism.
It sure slows down fat accumulation but has other functions too, like not getting so full you’re not able do anything else than digest food.
Also there are plausible reasons why you would eat past satiation. Satiation is not necessarily the same thing as not getting pleasure from eating excess food, especially if you live in an environment where food could become temporarily scarce.
I also talked about satiation here, and don’t find attacking this issue just from a single angle at once useful.
Why would evolution have applied strong braking mechanisms to the accumulation of fat?
If humans evolved under conditions where there was usually a calorie surplus available, then humans wouldn’t have evolved in such a way that it would just keep storing fat for as long as it could.
So
1) were our foraging ancestors chronically malnourished? (I think no)
2) are there any individuals who don’t store additional fat despite eating as much as they want? (I think yes and I think I am one)
There’s satiety, there’s increases in energy expenditure, there’s allocation of excess energy into lean body mass, etc. There’s lots of stuff the body might potentially do with extra energy other than throw it away or turn it into fat.
were our foraging ancestors chronically malnourished? (I think no)
Wrong question. Would there have been several times when stored fat could have been useful? You think all the millions of years were smooth sailing?
How much can you eat in calories without getting fat? Have you tried eating say 5000kcal a day without exercise? I could have probably eaten that much as a teenager but I also exercised a lot back then. Now I can eat maybe 2000-2500kcal without getting fat. Muscle is much easier to gain too now. There definitely are individuals who can eat pretty safely as much as they want, and most of them are young.
Have you tried eating say 5000kcal a day without exercise?
Of course not, but to the extent that such an experiment would be revealing: an individual named Sam Feltham reportedly did try a similar stunt − 5000kcal of low-carb-high-fat diet for 21 days—without gaining much weight. He didn’t stop the exercise he was already doing, but he did account for the exercise in his caloric expenditure calculations.
If we trust his honesty, then it’s safe to say that at some individuals exists who don’t gain weight in response to eating a lot of some calorie sources.
You’d be surprised how many of my Medline searches on specific issues that should be simple to research return nothing. Maybe I just suck at searching. Also, much of the research on “established facts” is so old it’s difficult to access electronically.
It’s not exactly a stunt. I’ve seen several people who eat much as 10000 kcal a day, all of them severely obese. Of course, they’re not on a low carb diet, but eating 5000 kcal is a breeze if you put your mind to it. I could do it easily if I wanted to too.
I totally believe he did that and didn’t gain weight, but that might not tell us much about people in general.
1) were our foraging ancestors chronically malnourished? (I think no)
It’s not like evolution magically stopped when agriculture was introduced, and early farmers were chronically malnourished. (It has had less time to operate since then than before then, though.)
Calorie intake and expenditure are automatically regulated by the body, and in a healthy person, marginal increases or decreases in calorie intake will cause matching changes to both appetite and to energy expenditure, by changing body temperature, fidgeting, and other expendable metabolic processes. Large, forced decreases in calorie intake must cause either a balancing release of energy from fat cells, or a matching reduction in energy expenditure, but unfortunately, it’s likely to be the latter. In that case, the energy expenditure comes from sacrificing metabolic processes that aren’t really expendable, damaging health. Obesity can only occur if this regulatory process is broken somehow. It is more likely to be broken by a high-carbohydrate diet than by a high-fat diet. If it’s broken in someone who’s on a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet, then switching to a high-fat low-carbohydrate diet is likely to fix it.
The previous paragraph is what I believe to be true. I don’t know how well it lines up with what Taubes has said, but I don’t care because Taubes is just a human. It does seem that he’s failed to communicate it clearly, but if you’re going to criticize him for that, the criticism should be delivered in the context of a clear restatement of the same position. If you’re going to go around saying things that are incompatible with the previous, then please address it directly; everything you’ve said so far is at least one step removed, and it’s frustrating because you keep saying things that aren’t even wrong.
RETRACTED: THIS WAS BS.
Are you saying that at no point of our evolution did our ancestors benefit from gaining a little storage fat in a way that we inherited, and even if they did, the only way to use those stores would be damaging?
Consider that the need for extra fat storage may often be seasonally based. Our bodies could sense upcomnig times of scarcity based on temperature, sunlight, and the types of food available (different fruits or vegetables ripe, etc.) All of these cues are of course scrambled to various extents in our (understandable) drive for optimal comfort at any time.
[googles for
obesity air conditioning]Google for sauna for obesity while you’re at it. And sauna belt, if you want to go real extreme.
What markdown code produced that comment?
Backslashes to escape the square brackets, and backticks to produce the monospaced font.
thanks[it isn’t necessary to escape brackets]Air Conditioning causes Obesity
I’m not sure whether that is a reductio ad absurdium refutation or support.
Those are good points, and I think there probably has been a conscious component in such behaviour too in later ancestors, and these same cues might affect hunger just as well as metabolism.
No, I’m not saying that.
Sorry about the strawman. I should have just asked you some questions.
Why would evolution have applied strong braking mechanisms to the accumulation of fat?
It seems I misunderstood this too. Can you taboo large and forced?
People and other animals have satiation for food.
It sure slows down fat accumulation but has other functions too, like not getting so full you’re not able do anything else than digest food.
Also there are plausible reasons why you would eat past satiation. Satiation is not necessarily the same thing as not getting pleasure from eating excess food, especially if you live in an environment where food could become temporarily scarce.
I also talked about satiation here, and don’t find attacking this issue just from a single angle at once useful.
If humans evolved under conditions where there was usually a calorie surplus available, then humans wouldn’t have evolved in such a way that it would just keep storing fat for as long as it could.
So
1) were our foraging ancestors chronically malnourished? (I think no)
2) are there any individuals who don’t store additional fat despite eating as much as they want? (I think yes and I think I am one)
There’s satiety, there’s increases in energy expenditure, there’s allocation of excess energy into lean body mass, etc. There’s lots of stuff the body might potentially do with extra energy other than throw it away or turn it into fat.
Wrong question. Would there have been several times when stored fat could have been useful? You think all the millions of years were smooth sailing?
How much can you eat in calories without getting fat? Have you tried eating say 5000kcal a day without exercise? I could have probably eaten that much as a teenager but I also exercised a lot back then. Now I can eat maybe 2000-2500kcal without getting fat. Muscle is much easier to gain too now. There definitely are individuals who can eat pretty safely as much as they want, and most of them are young.
Of course not, but to the extent that such an experiment would be revealing: an individual named Sam Feltham reportedly did try a similar stunt − 5000kcal of low-carb-high-fat diet for 21 days—without gaining much weight. He didn’t stop the exercise he was already doing, but he did account for the exercise in his caloric expenditure calculations.
If we trust his honesty, then it’s safe to say that at some individuals exists who don’t gain weight in response to eating a lot of some calorie sources.
Overview of overfeeding experiments in humans
Thanks. I’ll have to take a good look at that.
Thanks. If it’s at all complete, I’m shocked at little research there was.
You’d be surprised how many of my Medline searches on specific issues that should be simple to research return nothing. Maybe I just suck at searching. Also, much of the research on “established facts” is so old it’s difficult to access electronically.
It’s not exactly a stunt. I’ve seen several people who eat much as 10000 kcal a day, all of them severely obese. Of course, they’re not on a low carb diet, but eating 5000 kcal is a breeze if you put your mind to it. I could do it easily if I wanted to too.
I totally believe he did that and didn’t gain weight, but that might not tell us much about people in general.
It’s not like evolution magically stopped when agriculture was introduced, and early farmers were chronically malnourished. (It has had less time to operate since then than before then, though.)