I agree that my line of reasoning does not require any particular metaphors regarding theft, and I’m happy to adopt any simplifying assumptions that allow us to talk usefully about it. (As I say, there’s a reason I started with a much simpler toy example in the first place.)
So, OK. Returning to the line you dismissed as ad-hominem:
“The key to understanding whether a request for civility is sincere or not is to ask whether the person asking for civility has more power along whatever axes are contextually relevant than the person being called “incivil”, less power, or equal power.”
What the above quote seems to be saying is that when evaluating X’s endorsement of a rule of discourse, one significant factor is the extent to which X has contextually relevant power. Agreed? (1)
We’ve agreed that when evaluating X’s endorsement of a rule, one significant factor is the extent to which X benefits from that rule.
If it were true (which it might not be) that power differentials between X and Y as they apply to discourse correlate with differential benefit between X and Y from obeying the rules of discourse, then it would follow that power differentials between X and Y are relevant evidence when evaluating X and Y’s endorsement of those rules. Agreed?
If we agree so far, I’m content. For my own part, I do believe that power differentials between X and Y as they apply to discourse often correlate with differential benefit between X and Y from obeying the rules of discourse. I don’t think I could provide significant reason to believe it in the context of this comment-thread, though, so if we disagree about that I’m content to agree to disagree.
(1) This is admittedly modulo some rhetorical hyperbole; what the quote actually seems to say is that this is the only significant factor, which is absurd on the face of it. I very much doubt the author would stand by that literal reading… for example, I expect they would agree that the requester’s previous history of lying through their teeth was also relevant, at least sometimes, to understanding whether their request was sincere.
When evaluating the merits of a rule, it matters very little what X stands to gain from the rule. X’s evaluation is only relevant to you if you are trying to support or oppose the rule because of what X thinks. You have enough information to evaluate whether controlling the tone of a discussion is primarily a power play by the person trying to control the tone or primarily an attempt to improve communication by reducing the amount of noise in the channel. More important than identifying the motives, you can also figure out the likely result based on direct observation, without giving much weight to someone else’s conclusion based on their direct observation.
Whether evaluating the merits of a rule is a better thing to spend my time doing than evaluating the motives of the speaker is a value judgment completely orthogonal to what I was talking about.
If it were true (which it might not be) that power differentials between X and Y as they apply to discourse correlate with differential benefit between X and Y from obeying the rules of discourse, then it would follow that power differentials between X and Y are relevant evidence when evaluating X and Y’s endorsement of those rules. Agreed?
I was talking about evaluating the motives of the speaker, because that’s what OrphanWilde’s comment, which I was responding to, was talking about. That there exist other topics that would be more valuable to talk about is undoubtedly true, but rather beside my point.
It’s still an ad-hominem response. This is not to say it is wholly invalid—it’s proper in Bayesian reasoning to weigh the source of evidence in addition to the evidence itself, and I presume this may extend to arguments as well—but it is the weakest possible response to a criticism.
A potentially tangential continuation:
That caveat carries costs; it runs the very real risk of alienating sympathetic parties. I am no longer sympathetic to gnostic atheism, for example, as my attack on Dawkins may reveal. Indeed, Dawkins is quite possibly single-handled responsible for converting me from gnostic atheism to agnostic atheism, as my reactions to The God Delusion resulted in my re-evaluation of my own behavior, and then my re-evaluation of my own reasoning. While this is probably a plus, on the whole, for my rationality, Dawkins and other gnostic atheists might prefer to count it a minus.
To use my politics as another example, I used to count myself among the Democrats. The anti-Bush rhetoric did more than anything else in pushing me away from them, however. I can’t find the Overcoming Bias post describing Benjamin Franklin’s use of eliciting favors from others as a mechanism to make them like him, but a post somewhere else: http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/10/05/the-benjamin-franklin-effect/ makes a similar point. In retrospect, spending so much time defending Bush against undeserved/dishonest attacks probably had a pretty significant impact on my politics of the time; I cannot recall a deliberate reconsideration of my political policies, so I cannot claim any kind of win for rationality on this point. But this bias (whatever it’s called) does suggest a particularly high cost of hostile rhetoric among even rational people: You’re inviting the intellectually honest to do your mutual enemy a favor.
It’s still an ad-hominem response. This is not to say it is wholly invalid
Sure. If, when you wrote “Seriously? It’s advocating ad-hominem.” you meant to suggest that it was advocating a response that was valid but not as strong as other possible responses, then I agree with you completely. I had understood your rhetoric to be conveying a stronger objection.
Also agreed that hostile or otherwise extreme rhetoric can alienate people who might not be alienated by different rhetoric.
That said, while I often find reactive anti-Blue rhetoric offputting in much the way you describe, I also consider myself to have some responsibility for actually evaluating the positions involved, rather than allowing myself to be reactively alienated by it.
It was more that it didn’t advocate anything else at all. (As you observed, it’s hard to believe the author would endorse the literal understanding.)
I’m actually considering writing a “Defense of Ad-Hominem” post, if a search doesn’t turn any similar posts up in the past. I may take too much entertainment out of this. :-)
I agree that my line of reasoning does not require any particular metaphors regarding theft, and I’m happy to adopt any simplifying assumptions that allow us to talk usefully about it. (As I say, there’s a reason I started with a much simpler toy example in the first place.)
So, OK. Returning to the line you dismissed as ad-hominem:
What the above quote seems to be saying is that when evaluating X’s endorsement of a rule of discourse, one significant factor is the extent to which X has contextually relevant power. Agreed? (1)
We’ve agreed that when evaluating X’s endorsement of a rule, one significant factor is the extent to which X benefits from that rule.
If it were true (which it might not be) that power differentials between X and Y as they apply to discourse correlate with differential benefit between X and Y from obeying the rules of discourse, then it would follow that power differentials between X and Y are relevant evidence when evaluating X and Y’s endorsement of those rules. Agreed?
If we agree so far, I’m content. For my own part, I do believe that power differentials between X and Y as they apply to discourse often correlate with differential benefit between X and Y from obeying the rules of discourse. I don’t think I could provide significant reason to believe it in the context of this comment-thread, though, so if we disagree about that I’m content to agree to disagree.
(1) This is admittedly modulo some rhetorical hyperbole; what the quote actually seems to say is that this is the only significant factor, which is absurd on the face of it. I very much doubt the author would stand by that literal reading… for example, I expect they would agree that the requester’s previous history of lying through their teeth was also relevant, at least sometimes, to understanding whether their request was sincere.
When evaluating the merits of a rule, it matters very little what X stands to gain from the rule. X’s evaluation is only relevant to you if you are trying to support or oppose the rule because of what X thinks. You have enough information to evaluate whether controlling the tone of a discussion is primarily a power play by the person trying to control the tone or primarily an attempt to improve communication by reducing the amount of noise in the channel. More important than identifying the motives, you can also figure out the likely result based on direct observation, without giving much weight to someone else’s conclusion based on their direct observation.
Whether evaluating the merits of a rule is a better thing to spend my time doing than evaluating the motives of the speaker is a value judgment completely orthogonal to what I was talking about.
What were you talking about?
I was talking about evaluating the motives of the speaker, because that’s what OrphanWilde’s comment, which I was responding to, was talking about. That there exist other topics that would be more valuable to talk about is undoubtedly true, but rather beside my point.
I agree on all points with one caveat -
It’s still an ad-hominem response. This is not to say it is wholly invalid—it’s proper in Bayesian reasoning to weigh the source of evidence in addition to the evidence itself, and I presume this may extend to arguments as well—but it is the weakest possible response to a criticism.
A potentially tangential continuation:
That caveat carries costs; it runs the very real risk of alienating sympathetic parties. I am no longer sympathetic to gnostic atheism, for example, as my attack on Dawkins may reveal. Indeed, Dawkins is quite possibly single-handled responsible for converting me from gnostic atheism to agnostic atheism, as my reactions to The God Delusion resulted in my re-evaluation of my own behavior, and then my re-evaluation of my own reasoning. While this is probably a plus, on the whole, for my rationality, Dawkins and other gnostic atheists might prefer to count it a minus.
To use my politics as another example, I used to count myself among the Democrats. The anti-Bush rhetoric did more than anything else in pushing me away from them, however. I can’t find the Overcoming Bias post describing Benjamin Franklin’s use of eliciting favors from others as a mechanism to make them like him, but a post somewhere else: http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/10/05/the-benjamin-franklin-effect/ makes a similar point. In retrospect, spending so much time defending Bush against undeserved/dishonest attacks probably had a pretty significant impact on my politics of the time; I cannot recall a deliberate reconsideration of my political policies, so I cannot claim any kind of win for rationality on this point. But this bias (whatever it’s called) does suggest a particularly high cost of hostile rhetoric among even rational people: You’re inviting the intellectually honest to do your mutual enemy a favor.
Sure. If, when you wrote “Seriously? It’s advocating ad-hominem.” you meant to suggest that it was advocating a response that was valid but not as strong as other possible responses, then I agree with you completely. I had understood your rhetoric to be conveying a stronger objection.
Also agreed that hostile or otherwise extreme rhetoric can alienate people who might not be alienated by different rhetoric.
That said, while I often find reactive anti-Blue rhetoric offputting in much the way you describe, I also consider myself to have some responsibility for actually evaluating the positions involved, rather than allowing myself to be reactively alienated by it.
It was more that it didn’t advocate anything else at all. (As you observed, it’s hard to believe the author would endorse the literal understanding.)
I’m actually considering writing a “Defense of Ad-Hominem” post, if a search doesn’t turn any similar posts up in the past. I may take too much entertainment out of this. :-)