I see what you are saying. But I find it strange to apply this interpretation to “men manipulating women”, but not “women manipulating men”.
What is this in reference do? Who do you claim was doing that?
FYI: In case you’re interested:
HR:What was the main question, anyway?
JGW:Should we expect this community to hold discussion of PUA to a higher standard than discussions of other sorts of “social influence”, in particular, the use of beauty enhancement techniques to make women more attractive?
That would seem to contradict the discussion’s history. You entered after I said this:
My opinion is that LW shouldn’t be for PUA/beauty tips or how-to’s. But it would be appropriate to discuss why these methods work, under what conditions you’d want to resist them, and what countermeasures you can take. (And I suspect some don’t even want it to go this far, or want to restrict PUA more than beauty.)
And you entered to respond to the bolded part. I don’t think that’s equivalent to
Should we expect this community to hold discussion of PUA to a higher standard than discussions of other sorts of “social influence”, in particular, the use of beauty enhancement techniques to make women more attractive?
I was saying that, even though both beauty methods and male charisma methods induce bias, some posters (unfairly IMHO) support more restriction on discussion of the latter despite their relevance. JGW denies the existence of such a class of posters.
I was saying that, even though both beauty methods and male charisma methods induce bias, some posters (unfairly IMHO) support more restriction on discussion of the latter despite their relevance. JGW denies the existence of such a class of posters.
I am not saying that no individual poster will treat discussion of PUA unfairly. But I think that there will not be enough to cause problems if we have discussion of PUA following the standards you specified. Are we in agreement about this? If not, can we discuss it at the object level, without trying to assign each other motives for the positions we take?
I am not saying that no individual poster will treat discussion of PUA unfairly. But I think that there will not be enough to cause problems if we have discussion of PUA following the standards you specified. Are we in agreement about this? If not, can we discuss it at the object level, without trying to assign each other motives for the positions we take?
Better yet, skip the meta discussion entirely and just create a relevant, well written post on a charisma related subject that one of you happen to be interested in. If someone happens to object on principle then we’ll see it and respond as appropriate.
Why waste time second guessing hypothetical unreasonable objections?
Hey, fine with me. I’m not the one demanding huge-likelihood-ratio evidence to justify an estimate made in an aside. That would be JGW.
If I turn out to be wrong in my estimation that LW mirrors a lot of society in going apes*** whenever useful female romantic biases are mentioned, like it has in the past—GREAT! The reason we have guesses is to have expectations BEFORE the ultra-conclusive evidence comes in.
I don’t see why SilasBarta could not have merely said “female romantic biases”. We don’t talk about “useful halo effects”, after all. The extra modifier only makes sense if you assume the audience wants to pick up women.
I wouldn’t have used ‘biases’ either. That framing gives the wrong implications about where the actual ‘bias’ lays, conveying the impression that for some reason female attraction ‘should’ conform to some other ideal. I am more inclined to look at the bias that propagates the ideal.
Good point also. “Bias” should be reserved for predictable deviations from accurate estimates, while the concept doesn’t carry over here neatly. There are certainly biases in the sense that “negging you is not evidence that he’s higher status”, but then, women are not more “correct” for wanting high-status men, nor is it quite accurate to say that women consciously pursue status, which is only as true as saying “men want to spread their genes”.
Rather, evolution formed women’s minds with preferences that are imperfect detectors of status. A woman may thus only want an “attractive man [that I have a bond with]”, even knowing that the attractiveness is just an artifact of long-invalid built-in heuristics. (Just as men may merely want an “attractive woman”, even though the judgment uses heuristics irrelevant to gene propagation in the present day).
I agree. I don’t accept “biased” as a meaningful modifier to female subjective perceptions of male attractiveness. At most, bias could be ascribed to female perception about facts about men that might influence their perceptions of male attractiveness.
Alright, that sounds creepy/sleazy/demeaning. Fair point. Let me explain why I chose that term:
Like I said before, accurate discussions of biases can be transformed, by an intelligent person, into strategies to take advantage of others. This is sad, but it’s the price you pay for accuracy. The harm is, however, substantially mitigated by the theory/practice gap that exists even for good theories.
I could have said, less creepishly, “accurate female romantic biases”, and that was my first choice, but it doesn’t really capture what I’m referring to: no one objects to e.g., “women like gifts”, but it’s not very insightful into female psychology. What I want to refer to is the kind of things that are politically-incorrect to talk about, but are actually true and do reflect the functioning of female psychology. So I probably should have said, “real, female romantic biases that are taboo to talk about”, but shortened it to “useful”.
Thanks, but I’m not sure “important” does it either. It is likewise important that women are often revealed to be biased estimators of the commitment of fathers they’re not married to, but it is the psychological basis of the misjudgment I’m referring to, not its empirical regularity.
In any case, don’t let it bother you; any poor phrasing is my fault alone.
Seriously? I asked the questions to see if there really was evidence that LW really will scrutinize a PUA discussion more than a beauty techniques discussion that is equally demeaning/objectifying. The best evidence I have is that when both topics were discussed side by side, in the same style and tone, neither produced offense. Silas attempted focus in on only the discussion of beauty techniques not producing offense. And you think I am the one who is unreasonable and nearly disingenuous?
Perhaps my questions could seem unreasonable if interpreted as the only form of evidence I would accept. But if that is the case, why not just present another form of evidence, instead of complaining that my questions are not reasonable?
It is quite possible that my impressions do you an injustice. I share them only to express empathy with Silas, who seemed to me to be getting frustrated in a way that seemed understandable to me.
What is this in reference do? Who do you claim was doing that?
FYI: In case you’re interested:
That would seem to contradict the discussion’s history. You entered after I said this:
And you entered to respond to the bolded part. I don’t think that’s equivalent to
I was saying that, even though both beauty methods and male charisma methods induce bias, some posters (unfairly IMHO) support more restriction on discussion of the latter despite their relevance. JGW denies the existence of such a class of posters.
I am not saying that no individual poster will treat discussion of PUA unfairly. But I think that there will not be enough to cause problems if we have discussion of PUA following the standards you specified. Are we in agreement about this? If not, can we discuss it at the object level, without trying to assign each other motives for the positions we take?
Better yet, skip the meta discussion entirely and just create a relevant, well written post on a charisma related subject that one of you happen to be interested in. If someone happens to object on principle then we’ll see it and respond as appropriate.
Why waste time second guessing hypothetical unreasonable objections?
Hey, fine with me. I’m not the one demanding huge-likelihood-ratio evidence to justify an estimate made in an aside. That would be JGW.
If I turn out to be wrong in my estimation that LW mirrors a lot of society in going apes*** whenever useful female romantic biases are mentioned, like it has in the past—GREAT! The reason we have guesses is to have expectations BEFORE the ultra-conclusive evidence comes in.
...”useful”?
Perhaps:
I don’t see why SilasBarta could not have merely said “female romantic biases”. We don’t talk about “useful halo effects”, after all. The extra modifier only makes sense if you assume the audience wants to pick up women.
Edit: The above is apparently mistaken—SilasBarta’s correction.
I wouldn’t have used ‘biases’ either. That framing gives the wrong implications about where the actual ‘bias’ lays, conveying the impression that for some reason female attraction ‘should’ conform to some other ideal. I am more inclined to look at the bias that propagates the ideal.
Good point also. “Bias” should be reserved for predictable deviations from accurate estimates, while the concept doesn’t carry over here neatly. There are certainly biases in the sense that “negging you is not evidence that he’s higher status”, but then, women are not more “correct” for wanting high-status men, nor is it quite accurate to say that women consciously pursue status, which is only as true as saying “men want to spread their genes”.
Rather, evolution formed women’s minds with preferences that are imperfect detectors of status. A woman may thus only want an “attractive man [that I have a bond with]”, even knowing that the attractiveness is just an artifact of long-invalid built-in heuristics. (Just as men may merely want an “attractive woman”, even though the judgment uses heuristics irrelevant to gene propagation in the present day).
I agree. I don’t accept “biased” as a meaningful modifier to female subjective perceptions of male attractiveness. At most, bias could be ascribed to female perception about facts about men that might influence their perceptions of male attractiveness.
Well said!
Alright, that sounds creepy/sleazy/demeaning. Fair point. Let me explain why I chose that term:
Like I said before, accurate discussions of biases can be transformed, by an intelligent person, into strategies to take advantage of others. This is sad, but it’s the price you pay for accuracy. The harm is, however, substantially mitigated by the theory/practice gap that exists even for good theories.
I could have said, less creepishly, “accurate female romantic biases”, and that was my first choice, but it doesn’t really capture what I’m referring to: no one objects to e.g., “women like gifts”, but it’s not very insightful into female psychology. What I want to refer to is the kind of things that are politically-incorrect to talk about, but are actually true and do reflect the functioning of female psychology. So I probably should have said, “real, female romantic biases that are taboo to talk about”, but shortened it to “useful”.
In retrospect, that was unwise.
Oh! You meant “important”! I fear I have done you a disservice.
Thanks, but I’m not sure “important” does it either. It is likewise important that women are often revealed to be biased estimators of the commitment of fathers they’re not married to, but it is the psychological basis of the misjudgment I’m referring to, not its empirical regularity.
In any case, don’t let it bother you; any poor phrasing is my fault alone.
I agree that JGW demands were unreasonable, in fact, they came quite close to the line at which I would label them disingenuous.
Seriously? I asked the questions to see if there really was evidence that LW really will scrutinize a PUA discussion more than a beauty techniques discussion that is equally demeaning/objectifying. The best evidence I have is that when both topics were discussed side by side, in the same style and tone, neither produced offense. Silas attempted focus in on only the discussion of beauty techniques not producing offense. And you think I am the one who is unreasonable and nearly disingenuous?
Perhaps my questions could seem unreasonable if interpreted as the only form of evidence I would accept. But if that is the case, why not just present another form of evidence, instead of complaining that my questions are not reasonable?
It is quite possible that my impressions do you an injustice. I share them only to express empathy with Silas, who seemed to me to be getting frustrated in a way that seemed understandable to me.
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