These are good examples. I want to add one that I’ve observed/experienced, somewhat related to this one:
deliberately simplifying to produce a 30-second version of a 30-minute thought
Sometimes, you’re talking to a person who has some importance in your life — a relative, let us say — and they ask you a question about your life (some aspect of your life that doesn’t affect them directly). You know that, if you tell them the truth, their reaction will be to lecture you, berate you, give you unwanted advice, yell at you, or otherwise engage you in an unproductive mode of interaction. You know this because this has happened before; you are quite sure that this interaction won’t change your mind (because you have good reasons for living your life the way you do, as opposed to the way your interlocutor wants you to), nor will your protests or arguments change their mind (because of their irrationality). Neither is it likely that this person will respond to requests to drop the subject.
So, you lie. Result: continued peaceful, pleasant conversation.
What do people here think of the moral status of such lies? I am genuinely curious. I myself am somewhat torn, and I’d like opinions.
I don’t think such lies are particularly wrong, but they aren’t the best way to go about dealing with the situation. Not that telling them the truth is better, because it leads to them acting as you describe. I think it’s best to say “I don’t want to talk about that” or “That’s personal”, and shame them if they pry.
In the interests of full disclosure, I should say that I’m not close to any of my relatives.
Heh. “I don’t want to talk about that” or “That’s personal” don’t come anywhere close to working in certain cultures (by which I mean both the unique culture specific to a family, and cultural groups such as e.g. Ashkenazi Jews — the archetypal Jewish mother who says “So, are you meeting any nice girls? What do you mean it’s none of my business?? Of course it’s my business! I’m your mother!” etc. etc.).
Edit: What’s with the downvotes all over this thread...?
If it doesn’t work, I recommend ending the conversation, saying something like, “If you’re not going to respect my boundaries, I’m not going to talk to you”.
This doesn’t apply if you’re financially dependent on said relative. If so, go ahead and lie as much as you need to.
Yeah, I have heard this sort of recommendation. I… don’t think I’ve ever actually seen anyone use it. I don’t know, it could be a good one. It’s a rather harsh thing to say, though, especially to, say, one’s grandmother. I don’t think I could do it.
I guess the point is, sometimes, not lying is hard? (If you’re the type to take an absolute stance against lying, your response might be along the lines of “Yes, doing the right thing is hard. That makes it no less right.” I remain… unconvinced.)
I’ve come close to using it, and it just approaching it has been enough to get people to back down. In the long run, it teaches them not to ask you about those things, which is what you want. I can see it being rather harsh, though. I guess I have some difficulty imagining being in an interpersonal relationship in which I both feel strongly positively towards a person (enough to make me reluctant to say something like that) and at the same time having things that I have to lie about.
If someone wants to pry into your affairs and berate you about them, then you are perfectly justified in lying to avoid them getting on your case. And moreover, if they know they will get on your case if you tell them the truth, then they shouldn’t even expect you to tell the truth.
In this view, if they are clearly defecting on you by trying to get into your business, then you are justified in defecting on them. If they are laying a trap, and you walk into it, then you may encourage them to engage in that behavior in the future. Tit-for-tat.
To be extra clear, when I support lying to people who want to pry “pry into your affairs,” I am specifically referring to private information which isn’t their business. I am not referring to lying to cover up wrongdoing you’ve committed, or in ways that will cause them tangible harm. Those situations are more complicated. By “private” information, I am talking about information which is widely considered private in which culture is relevant, and which tangibly effects mostly you, not other people.
I am also following your premise that this person likely can’t be reasoned with based on a persistent pattern of their behavior, or persuaded to be more accepting of your behavior. Evasion, persuasion, and avoidance are preferable if they work.
Lying to people as tit-for-tat punishment seems valuable to me, but only within confines of a narrow set of situations involving people who have demonstrated a consistent pattern of being hostile or controlling, and where evasion is infeasible. My endorsement of this notion should not taken as a defense of lying in a broad range of situations.
And moreover, if they know they will get on your case if you tell them the truth, then they shouldn’t even expect you to tell the truth.
Indeed, this has been my exact answer in cases where such lies have been found out.
To be extra clear, when I support lying to people who want to pry “pry into your affairs,” I am specifically referring to private information which isn’t their business. I am not referring to lying to cover up wrongdoing you’ve committed, or in ways that will cause them tangible harm.
Agreed entirely.
My endorsement of this notion should not taken as a defense of lying in a broad range of situations.
To be extra clear, when I support lying to people who want to pry “pry into your affairs,” I am specifically referring to private information which isn’t their business. I am not referring to lying to cover up wrongdoing you’ve committed, or in ways that will cause them tangible harm.
The thing is that the prying person likely considers the private affair to potentially involve wrongdoing.
By “private” information, I am talking about information which is widely considered private in which culture is relevant,
So if you were in a culture that permitted say, slavery, and considered how one treats one’s slaves a private affair, you would you still be willing to apply the above reasoning.
The thing is that the prying person likely considers the private affair to potentially involve wrongdoing.
Maybe. There are several scenarios:
A prying person might believe that you might be engaged in actual wrongdoing.
A prying person believes that you are engages in something that they think is wrong, but actually isn’t wrong.
A prying person doesn’t believe that you are doing anything wrong. They are just trying to get on your case because they are controlling or malicious. Or they think it’s fun.
In SaidAchmiz’s example of a nosy relative, it’s not at all clear that the relative believes he might be engaging in any moral infraction, unless that relative has an incredibly expansive notion of morality, as some relatives do.
So if you were in a culture that permitted say, slavery, and considered how one treats one’s slaves a private affair, you would you still be willing to apply the above reasoning.
No, and I don’t think this is accurate reading of my comment, though perhaps I allowed for confusion. In my comment, I discuss multiple conditions for ethically lying to people prying into private information:
That information is considered private in the relevant culture, such that the questioner knows (or should know) they are asking for information that is culturally considered private. If they know they are potentially defecting on you, then their behavior is worse. If they don’t know they are defecting on you, then their apparent defection may have been a mistake on their part, in which case, you should be less enthusiastic to engage in tit-for-tat defection.
The “private” information does not include ” lying to cover up wrongdoing you’ve committed, or in ways that will cause them tangible harm.”
Since slavery is wrongdoing, then a slaveholder is not justified in lying about treatment of slaves, even in a past culture where slavery was considered acceptable and private.
Yes, some slaveholders may have believed that slavery was justifiable, and they were then justified in lying to cover up their treatment of slaves. But they were wrong, and they should have known better.
To conclude, I suggest there are some circumstances where it is justified to lie in response to prying questions about private information. This principle is contingent on classifying some kinds of questions as undeserving of true responses. I have not attempted a rigorous or comprehensive discussion of which questions are undeserving; that would be a much longer discussion, and you are welcome to provide your own thoughts if you consider it interesting.
I do believe that cultural notions of privacy are useful to estimate whether a questioner is being an asshole, though norms aren’t the only factor. If indeed a questioner is asking a question which should be considered unethical, abusive, or overly intrusive… and that type of question is also culturally recognized as unethical, abusive, or overly intrusive, then the questioner should know that they are being an asshole.
If it’s a morally ambiguous situation, where the other person can morally justify getting into your private business, or the ethics or intentions of their questions are unclear, then lying to them to protect your privacy is much less defensible.
That information is considered private in the relevant culture, such that the questioner knows (or should know) they are asking for information that is culturally considered private. If they know they are potentially defecting on you, then their behavior is worse. If they don’t know they are defecting on you, then their apparent defection may have been a mistake on their part, in which case, you should be less enthusiastic to engage in tit-for-tat defection.
What if you consider the information private, but the person asking does not (and you are both aware of the other’s views)? (That is, they know you think it should be private, but they disagree with you on that point.)
If you know that the other person believes that the information isn’t private, then you know that they aren’t knowingly doing something which they believe is prying. So they don’t have mens rea for being an asshole by their own standards. (Yes, I believe that sometimes people are assholes by their own standards, and these are exactly the sort of people who don’t deserve the truth about my private matters.)
If they don’t know my feelings about privacy, then they are not knowingly intruding. But if they do know my views on the privacy of that information, they are knowingly asking for information that I consider private. That could be...disrespectful. If my feelings about privacy on that matter are strong, and they ask anyway, then they may have mens rea for being an asshole by my standards. Perhaps they believe that my standards are wrong and that I should not judge them as an asshole for violating them.
If I thought there was legitimate disagreement about whether the information should be considered private, then I wouldn’t view the other person as defecting on me, and I wouldn’t feel motivated to lie to them to punish their defection. If I still felt motivated to lie, it would be for purely self-defensive reasons (for instance, I might lie to conceal health issues which don’t effect anyone else).
As examples, I think there are many questions between relationship partners, where the ethics of privacy vs. transparency are up for debate, e.g. “how many partners have you had in the past?”, “do you still have feelings for your ex?”, “have you had any same-sex partners?”
On the other hand, if I thought their view of privacy was ridiculous, and they can’t defend their view against mine, then I would be pretty annoyed if they still pressured me for information anyway. That sounds like a breakdown of cooperative communication, or the beginning of a fight. Lying might be an acceptable way to get out of this situation.
Surely there is some point where communication becomes sufficiently adversarial that you are no longer obligated to tell the truth? Especially if both people can tell there is a conflict, so they know to discount the other’s truthfulness?
For example, if your nosy aunt says “I feel that your current dating situation shouldn’t be private,” you say “I think it should be private,” and she continues to ask about your dating situation, then I think you are justified in lying. Your aunt is knowingly pushing for information that you want to keep hidden. She has no defensible argument that her view of privacy should trump yours.
Since you have stated that you think your dating situation should be private, your aunt shouldn’t even expect to get the truth out of you here, so if you lie, there is less danger of her being deceived. People are known to lie about matters that they consider private, and your aunt should take this into account if she chooses to needle you.
When I’m discussing lying to a prying person, I’m mostly imagining conversations that are non-cooperative or hostile, or which involve protecting secrets which mostly effect oneself. I am imagining nosy relatives, slanderous reporters, totalitarian judges, or ignorant coworkers who ask you why you are taking pills. Remember, my ethics generally prefers evading or refusing prying questions. If evasion doesn’t work, that suggests an uncooperative discussion or cornering has occurred.
A prying person might believe that you might be engaged in actual wrongdoing.
A prying person believes that you are engages in something that they think is wrong, but actually isn’t wrong.
A prying person doesn’t believe that you are doing anything wrong. They are just trying to get on your case because they are controlling or malicious. Or they think it’s fun.
You should also consider the possibility:
1a. A prying person believes that you are engages in something that is wrong, but that you mistakenly think isn’t wrong.
Yes, I know this is technichally a special case of 1., but it’s worth considering separately since people tend to be bad at considering the possibility that they are wrong.
These are good examples. I want to add one that I’ve observed/experienced, somewhat related to this one:
Sometimes, you’re talking to a person who has some importance in your life — a relative, let us say — and they ask you a question about your life (some aspect of your life that doesn’t affect them directly). You know that, if you tell them the truth, their reaction will be to lecture you, berate you, give you unwanted advice, yell at you, or otherwise engage you in an unproductive mode of interaction. You know this because this has happened before; you are quite sure that this interaction won’t change your mind (because you have good reasons for living your life the way you do, as opposed to the way your interlocutor wants you to), nor will your protests or arguments change their mind (because of their irrationality). Neither is it likely that this person will respond to requests to drop the subject.
So, you lie. Result: continued peaceful, pleasant conversation.
What do people here think of the moral status of such lies? I am genuinely curious. I myself am somewhat torn, and I’d like opinions.
I don’t think such lies are particularly wrong, but they aren’t the best way to go about dealing with the situation. Not that telling them the truth is better, because it leads to them acting as you describe. I think it’s best to say “I don’t want to talk about that” or “That’s personal”, and shame them if they pry.
In the interests of full disclosure, I should say that I’m not close to any of my relatives.
Heh. “I don’t want to talk about that” or “That’s personal” don’t come anywhere close to working in certain cultures (by which I mean both the unique culture specific to a family, and cultural groups such as e.g. Ashkenazi Jews — the archetypal Jewish mother who says “So, are you meeting any nice girls? What do you mean it’s none of my business?? Of course it’s my business! I’m your mother!” etc. etc.).
Edit: What’s with the downvotes all over this thread...?
If it doesn’t work, I recommend ending the conversation, saying something like, “If you’re not going to respect my boundaries, I’m not going to talk to you”.
This doesn’t apply if you’re financially dependent on said relative. If so, go ahead and lie as much as you need to.
Yeah, I have heard this sort of recommendation. I… don’t think I’ve ever actually seen anyone use it. I don’t know, it could be a good one. It’s a rather harsh thing to say, though, especially to, say, one’s grandmother. I don’t think I could do it.
I guess the point is, sometimes, not lying is hard? (If you’re the type to take an absolute stance against lying, your response might be along the lines of “Yes, doing the right thing is hard. That makes it no less right.” I remain… unconvinced.)
I’ve come close to using it, and it just approaching it has been enough to get people to back down. In the long run, it teaches them not to ask you about those things, which is what you want. I can see it being rather harsh, though. I guess I have some difficulty imagining being in an interpersonal relationship in which I both feel strongly positively towards a person (enough to make me reluctant to say something like that) and at the same time having things that I have to lie about.
If someone wants to pry into your affairs and berate you about them, then you are perfectly justified in lying to avoid them getting on your case. And moreover, if they know they will get on your case if you tell them the truth, then they shouldn’t even expect you to tell the truth.
In this view, if they are clearly defecting on you by trying to get into your business, then you are justified in defecting on them. If they are laying a trap, and you walk into it, then you may encourage them to engage in that behavior in the future. Tit-for-tat.
To be extra clear, when I support lying to people who want to pry “pry into your affairs,” I am specifically referring to private information which isn’t their business. I am not referring to lying to cover up wrongdoing you’ve committed, or in ways that will cause them tangible harm. Those situations are more complicated. By “private” information, I am talking about information which is widely considered private in which culture is relevant, and which tangibly effects mostly you, not other people.
I am also following your premise that this person likely can’t be reasoned with based on a persistent pattern of their behavior, or persuaded to be more accepting of your behavior. Evasion, persuasion, and avoidance are preferable if they work.
Lying to people as tit-for-tat punishment seems valuable to me, but only within confines of a narrow set of situations involving people who have demonstrated a consistent pattern of being hostile or controlling, and where evasion is infeasible. My endorsement of this notion should not taken as a defense of lying in a broad range of situations.
Indeed, this has been my exact answer in cases where such lies have been found out.
Agreed entirely.
Also, agreed entirely.
The thing is that the prying person likely considers the private affair to potentially involve wrongdoing.
So if you were in a culture that permitted say, slavery, and considered how one treats one’s slaves a private affair, you would you still be willing to apply the above reasoning.
Maybe. There are several scenarios:
A prying person might believe that you might be engaged in actual wrongdoing.
A prying person believes that you are engages in something that they think is wrong, but actually isn’t wrong.
A prying person doesn’t believe that you are doing anything wrong. They are just trying to get on your case because they are controlling or malicious. Or they think it’s fun.
In SaidAchmiz’s example of a nosy relative, it’s not at all clear that the relative believes he might be engaging in any moral infraction, unless that relative has an incredibly expansive notion of morality, as some relatives do.
No, and I don’t think this is accurate reading of my comment, though perhaps I allowed for confusion. In my comment, I discuss multiple conditions for ethically lying to people prying into private information:
That information is considered private in the relevant culture, such that the questioner knows (or should know) they are asking for information that is culturally considered private. If they know they are potentially defecting on you, then their behavior is worse. If they don’t know they are defecting on you, then their apparent defection may have been a mistake on their part, in which case, you should be less enthusiastic to engage in tit-for-tat defection.
The “private” information does not include ” lying to cover up wrongdoing you’ve committed, or in ways that will cause them tangible harm.”
Since slavery is wrongdoing, then a slaveholder is not justified in lying about treatment of slaves, even in a past culture where slavery was considered acceptable and private.
Yes, some slaveholders may have believed that slavery was justifiable, and they were then justified in lying to cover up their treatment of slaves. But they were wrong, and they should have known better.
To conclude, I suggest there are some circumstances where it is justified to lie in response to prying questions about private information. This principle is contingent on classifying some kinds of questions as undeserving of true responses. I have not attempted a rigorous or comprehensive discussion of which questions are undeserving; that would be a much longer discussion, and you are welcome to provide your own thoughts if you consider it interesting.
I do believe that cultural notions of privacy are useful to estimate whether a questioner is being an asshole, though norms aren’t the only factor. If indeed a questioner is asking a question which should be considered unethical, abusive, or overly intrusive… and that type of question is also culturally recognized as unethical, abusive, or overly intrusive, then the questioner should know that they are being an asshole.
If it’s a morally ambiguous situation, where the other person can morally justify getting into your private business, or the ethics or intentions of their questions are unclear, then lying to them to protect your privacy is much less defensible.
What if you consider the information private, but the person asking does not (and you are both aware of the other’s views)? (That is, they know you think it should be private, but they disagree with you on that point.)
Good questions.
If you know that the other person believes that the information isn’t private, then you know that they aren’t knowingly doing something which they believe is prying. So they don’t have mens rea for being an asshole by their own standards. (Yes, I believe that sometimes people are assholes by their own standards, and these are exactly the sort of people who don’t deserve the truth about my private matters.)
If they don’t know my feelings about privacy, then they are not knowingly intruding. But if they do know my views on the privacy of that information, they are knowingly asking for information that I consider private. That could be...disrespectful. If my feelings about privacy on that matter are strong, and they ask anyway, then they may have mens rea for being an asshole by my standards. Perhaps they believe that my standards are wrong and that I should not judge them as an asshole for violating them.
If I thought there was legitimate disagreement about whether the information should be considered private, then I wouldn’t view the other person as defecting on me, and I wouldn’t feel motivated to lie to them to punish their defection. If I still felt motivated to lie, it would be for purely self-defensive reasons (for instance, I might lie to conceal health issues which don’t effect anyone else).
As examples, I think there are many questions between relationship partners, where the ethics of privacy vs. transparency are up for debate, e.g. “how many partners have you had in the past?”, “do you still have feelings for your ex?”, “have you had any same-sex partners?”
On the other hand, if I thought their view of privacy was ridiculous, and they can’t defend their view against mine, then I would be pretty annoyed if they still pressured me for information anyway. That sounds like a breakdown of cooperative communication, or the beginning of a fight. Lying might be an acceptable way to get out of this situation.
Surely there is some point where communication becomes sufficiently adversarial that you are no longer obligated to tell the truth? Especially if both people can tell there is a conflict, so they know to discount the other’s truthfulness?
For example, if your nosy aunt says “I feel that your current dating situation shouldn’t be private,” you say “I think it should be private,” and she continues to ask about your dating situation, then I think you are justified in lying. Your aunt is knowingly pushing for information that you want to keep hidden. She has no defensible argument that her view of privacy should trump yours.
Since you have stated that you think your dating situation should be private, your aunt shouldn’t even expect to get the truth out of you here, so if you lie, there is less danger of her being deceived. People are known to lie about matters that they consider private, and your aunt should take this into account if she chooses to needle you.
When I’m discussing lying to a prying person, I’m mostly imagining conversations that are non-cooperative or hostile, or which involve protecting secrets which mostly effect oneself. I am imagining nosy relatives, slanderous reporters, totalitarian judges, or ignorant coworkers who ask you why you are taking pills. Remember, my ethics generally prefers evading or refusing prying questions. If evasion doesn’t work, that suggests an uncooperative discussion or cornering has occurred.
You should also consider the possibility:
1a. A prying person believes that you are engages in something that is wrong, but that you mistakenly think isn’t wrong.
Yes, I know this is technichally a special case of 1., but it’s worth considering separately since people tend to be bad at considering the possibility that they are wrong.